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$$$ Savings using Electricity vs Gas

18K views 38 replies 19 participants last post by  Tsnor 
#1 ·
US gov't web site fueleconomy dot gov has estimated fuel cost for the Pacifica Hybrid to drive 25 miles in battery-only mode and depleted batter / hybrid only mode.

The calculations assume $2.36/gal of regular gas and $0.13/kilowatt hour for electricity. You can customize those.

The 25 mile cost = $1.73 (battery, on a single charge)
= $1.84 (driving on gas only)

The major saving for the Pacifica Hybrid ($900/year electric+gas) vs Pacifica ($1600/year) is the better gas mileage.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Thanks for that. I customized the calculator to match my costs of $.16/KWh for electricity and $2.25/gallon for gas. With those numbers it would cost me $2.14 to drive 25 miles on pure electric and $1.76 to drive the same 25 miles on pure gas. This means it would be cheaper for me to NOT plug in. Is the hybrid really going to save most people money?
 
#3 ·
Hybrid Pacifica, when you don't bother to plug in, saves about $600 to $700 a year vs non hybrid at current gas prices for US gov't mix of city/highway and 15K miles. For your costs, it makes sense *NOT* to plug in, but still use hybrid mode. If gas goes up to say $3.50 and electric stays at $0.13/kwh then the electric mode saves a bunch.

I was very surprised that, at current gas and electric prices, it did not make a lot of $$ difference if you went through the work of charging for 14 hours each night vs let eh run run like a pure hybrid instead of a plug in hybrid.

Using the battery does shift the greenhouse gas production from gasoline to electricity generation, and hopefully reduce it. Charging overnight, you are more apt to get wind or hydro or nuke because total load is less and they turn off some of the gas fired generators.
 
#4 ·
Using the same defaults, I seem to be getting different numbers: 25 mile cost of electric = $1.30 for gas = $1.82. My numbers would be much better because my electricity is cheaper and my gas more expensive.
 
#5 ·
I am also having trouble with the all-electric calculation, and this is really important for me when deciding to purchase this vehicle. 16kWh battery X $0.13/kWh = $2.08. How did you get $1.73?

Also, when I checked the website, it states that the Pacifica can get 33 miles on a full charge, 2.06 miles per kWh? I have a BMW i3, which I know is a lot smaller and lighter vehicle, but in the real world I have been getting 4.2 miles per kWh in warm weather, 2.8 miles/kWh when the temp is down around 0 degrees F. I didn't think it would be less than half that with the Pacifica.
 
#6 ·
I am also having trouble with the all-electric calculation, and this is really important for me when deciding to purchase this vehicle. 16kWh battery X $0.13/kWh = $2.08. How did you get $1.73?
That's $1.73 for the power used to drive 25 miles, not the power needed to fully charge the battery. Two different measurements.

I didn't think it would be less than half that with the Pacifica.
Why not? Small economy vehicles double the fuel efficiency of larger heavy vehicles all the time. I wouldn't expect that to change regardless of the fuel type.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Just put in current numbers of 12 cents per kWh and $2.45 per gallon of gas and used the detailed form. Got these results:



Which equates to under 5 cents per mile for electricity and about 7.4 cents per mile for gas.
 
#17 ·
That's odd... everywhere I read, they quote EPA as rating it a 33 mile electric only range and an 84mpge with an overall 566 mile range.
 
#18 ·
Correct. Those are the results based on testing done using standardized controls established by the EPA for consistency from them regardless of the EV/hybrid they test. The individual consumer can only duplicate those results using the same controls. Not realistic. The 2015 Volt was rated at 98 MPGe under the same testing. Nobody actually mimicked those results since the vehicle is marketed to be a situationally ideal vehicle as opposed to a gas powered vehicle that will obtain more consistent fuel economy without regard to the situation it's driven. I have seen actual realtime MPGe results on Volts of 298 MPGe and one of my clients kept track of the three total times in the entire year of 2014 that she actually purchased gas. That is not a typo. Three times all year long. She is a realtor and runs around a bunch and when she is working out of her home office she stays plugged in. On the other hand, if your daily commute is something like 30-40 miles one way and your thinking that the Pacifica hybrid is going to provide a huge benefit to you (just because the EPA released the fuel economy to be 80 MPGe) you are going to regret your decision and complain that someone lied to you about the economy ratings and blame everyone but yourself for it etc etc. On the other hand, if your commute is 15 miles one way I promise you they are going to miss you at you regular gas station and you will rave about how friggin awesome the Pacifica is.
Again, this is a situationally specific vehicle. Evaluate your situation to obtain the maximum benifit. Probably not a good idea for someone like a regional outside sales rep.
I hope that I provided some clarity on this, if anyone doesn't get it please reach out to me.
 
#19 ·
Here's how I do my calculations:

Chicago-area gas: $2.02 per gallon

80% charing efficiency; (for every 1 kWhr from the wall the battery is charged 0.8 kWhr, loss due to AC/DC conversion, etc.)

-----------
2013 Ford C-max
2.66 miles per kWhr (epa website estimate)
3.14 miles per kWhr (my measurements)
0.116 $ per kWhr
38 miles per gallon (hybrid mode)

-- cents per mile comparison
202/38 = 5.32 cents per mile
11.6 / 3.14 / 0.80 = 4.62 cents per mile

-- $ per gallon equivalent
0.116 / 3.14 / 0.80 * 38 = $1.75 per gallon equivalent

-----------
2017 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid
2.48 miles per kWhr (epa website estimate)
0.116 $ per kWhr
33 miles per gallon (hybrid mode)

-- cents per mile comparison
202/33 = 6.12 cents per mile
11.6 / 2.48 / 0.80 = 5.85 cents per mile
202/19 = 10.6 cents per mile in normal minivan

-- $ per gallon equivalent
0.116 / 2.48 / 0.80 * 33 = $1.93 per gallon equivalent hybrid
0.116 / 2.48 / 0.80 * 19 = $1.11 per gallon equivalent normal minivan

--------------
In summary, long as gas costs more than $1.11 per gallon it is better than a plain minivan, and as long as gas costs more than $1.93 it is better to charge from the wall (excluding pain to drive and fill tank in cold).
 
#21 ·
In Southern California, today's Orange County Register quoted AAA saying the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded gasoline in the Los Angeles/Orange County area is currently $2.98. The Register went on to report that analysts predict the price will rise 40 to 70 cents per gallon by mid May of this year. Like many others here, I am on a time-of-use plan for electricity with Southern California Edison. We pay different rates for electricity depending on the time of day. The super off-peak (between 10:00 pm and 8:00 am) rate for electricity with the plan I have is $0.13 per kWh (that's about the best rate we can get here -- it's substantially higher at other times). Using these rates, the 25 mile trip is $0.60 less expensive using electricity than using gasoline. That cost advantage of electricity will only increase as gasoline prices increase.

We could discuss and make conjectures for a long time regarding why both gasoline and electricity prices are so high in California. But the information I gave above is the reality of the situation.

For me personally, we have a solar panel system on our house, and we generate more than we consume. We should be able to absorb the increase in electricity usage that will result from charging an additional plug-in vehicle and still have an electric bill of zero. Thus for us, when we charge at home, driving a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid in electric mode will be like having free fuel, with no emissions to drive and nearly no emissions to generate (It could be argued that since we will be charging at night, when our solar panel system is not generating, we are using electricity that was generated from sources that cause harmful emissions, such as a steam generating plant burning natural gas. However, in my mind, we offset our electricity usage at night by generating excessive energy with our solar panels in the day, sending that clean energy back into the grid.)

Thus, I'm looking forward to getting a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid and driving it in electric mode as much as possible. Thanks for reading all of this.
 
#22 ·
Here's how I figured my savings from another thread on solar panels from this forum (http://www.pacificaforums.com/forum...rid-owners-considering-them-5.html#post115145):

My bill includes a charge of $19.25/mo as a fee to essentially be a utility customer and use their meter. I'm going to pay that fee with or without the Pacifica Hybrid (so long as I am attached to the grid). So calculating from my bill and excluding that fixed fee, my electricity cost is 16.6 cents/kWh. So if 12 kWh fills the battery, then each charge is $1.99. And if a full charge yields 33 miles, then:
$1.99 / 33 miles = $0.06/mile

If gas is used at $2.45/gal, and the Pacifica Hybrid can get 31mpg, then:
$2.45 / 31 miles = $0.079/mile

And if we use the traditional gas-model Pacifica and assume 23mpg, we get:
$2.45 / 23 miles = $0.107/mile

So yearly fuel costs on 12,000 miles would break down to be:

Pacifica Hybrid (EV mode): $720
Pacifica Hybrid (hybrid mode): $948
Pacifica (gas-model): $1284

So using the Pacifica Hybrid in EV mode could save ~$47/mo ($564/yr) over the gas-model Pacifica at my current prices of electricity and gasoline. And if solar comes into the equation, the savings could be much more once the solar investment has been paid back.
 
#24 ·
Man, I am happy to live in NE. The postings of .16kWh are ridiculous. Good ol .09-.10 here. If I need to I can do virtual net metering and lock that in with our solar farm at this rate for the next 20 years.
My original calculations were at 2.80 a gallon and .11 a kwh I believe. It also assumed a steady 80mpg which was a misconception I had at the time. I also only buy premium gas because I don't like changing out the fuel pump every couple years. (Seriously, maybe a chrysler problem but buying premium has reduced my trips to the mechanic drastically)
My adjusted spreadsheet shows that it costs me .053 per mile electric and .10 per mile gas. Multiply that by 10K miles and you get a better story, eg it costs $530 on electric and $1000 on gas. It gets even more interesting when you think that if you didn't buy the hybrid model you would be getting even worse gas mileage. So in the end if you are like me and plan on driving the car to at least 150K miles you will save at least 7000 dollars. Vs my existing T&C at 18mpg...the cost per 10K miles is around 23K. SO my savings over my current van is a whopping $16K
 
#26 ·
Been debating buying the hybrid, and with the following assumptions here in Ontario, Canada, it makes very good sense I think considering my daily commute of 70km (44mi) roundtrip. I add another 7200km (4500mi) on the weekends/road trips per year. Litre of gas hovering around $1.0CAD/L (about $3.80/gal) and hydro at $0.135CAD/kwh.

On an annual basis for my commute, including 4 weeks off for vacations/sick days etc, I travel about 16,800 km (10,500mi) to work and back home. Assuming that I am able to realize a base case of 35km (22mi) electric range of mostly highway driving (typically stop and go for probably half the commute), that would cut my gas driving by half.

So, 8400km (5250mi) gas, 8400km electric with the assumption again, that the new Pacifica Hybrid will give me 8L/100km (30mpg) gas efficiency, indicates I would use 672L (178gal) of gas annually, at a cost of approximately $672CAD. Charging the van would cost $2.16CAD/day (16kwh*$0.135CAD*5*48), so on an annual basis would cost around $518.40CAD. Total cost for the commute would then be around $1190.40CAD.

Weekends are a little more difficult to nail down. Annually, 7200km (4500mi) which is about 140km (87.5mi) per weekend. Assuming most of these are short trips within the city, I am hoping that 100km (62.5mi) will be covered by electricity. If that is the case, then 5200km (3250mi) should be electric with a further 2000km (1250mi) on gas. Total annual hydro cost would be $224.64CAD and gas would be about $160.00CAD.

So, with 24,000km (15,000mi) annually, I figure total electric cost would be something like $743.04CAD plus gas cost of $832CAD for a net total of $1575CAD. And I am hoping that is the worst case scenario with only 35km (22mi) electric range.

Right now, we typically spend just over $3000CAD on gas every year with our 2009 Routan and would expect the gas Pacifica to cost about $2600CAD (based on 11L/100km (22mpg)). Of course, there are variables such as the cost of gas, which I would only expect to go up and government policy intervention--Ontario rumoured to provide 'free' hydro for recharging your EV for 4 years!
 
#28 ·
Been debating buying the hybrid, and with the following assumptions here in Ontario, Canada, it makes very good sense I think considering my daily commute of 70km (44mi) roundtrip. I add another 7200km (4500mi) on the weekends/road trips per year. Litre of gas hovering around $1.0CAD/L (about $3.80/gal) and hydro at $0.135CAD/kwh.
Don't forget the delivery of the electricity at about .05kwh - makes it more like .18kwh. Also in Ontario you will get a $14,000 gift from the province and a green plate, which allows use of car pool lanes ($60/month value if you can get a permit at all). Not to mention the fact that your province gave $86 million to the maintenance of the plant in Windsor.
High Occupancy Toll (HOT) Lanes
Ontario gives Fiat Chrysler $85.8 million to ?safeguard? Windsor plant | Financial Post

All in all it's pretty hard to resist.
 
#34 ·
I remember doing all these calculations before I got the Volt.

A couple of other things you may not have considered: The engine will run at times in cold weather to provide supplemental heat to the cabin, so you burn some gas even with battery range remaining. The costs are not likely to be high, but this behaviour ends up being a surprise to a lot of PHEV owners.

Maintenance requirements are lower for the Hybrid, so you save money and inconvenience compared to the gas model. Minivans can be hard on brakes, but the Hybrid's regenerative braking should solve this. Oil change frequencies are lower.

Some insurers offer a "Green Discount" or similar.
 
#35 ·
Thanks for the insight, Breezy. I did base my calculations on a low 35km electric range for the Pacifica Hybrid--hoping I only see those numbers in the dead of winter when its -20C or something! Not that we have seen anywhere close to those temperatures this winter. The savings really add up if I see 50km electric range on a 70km round trip to work and back.

Looking forward to lower maintenance costs on brakes--our 2009 Routan chews them up regularly! Will have to ask my insurance agent about a green discount--good to know, thanks again!
 
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