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Discussion Starter #1
I'm hoping to get to the Chicago Auto Show to see the 2021 Pacifica offerings. Supposedly both the ICE and Hybrid will be on display with styling updates and optional AWD models. The Chicago Auto Show wis always the second week of February. This year, the last day is President's Day.
 

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The leaked look was almost bang on..

Today the 2021 is unveiled.. meet the Pacifica Hybrid Pinnacle.


 

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The official name for the second vehicle in this thread's subject line is Pacifica Unicorn. Lovable, maybe, but non-existent. ;)
 

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So there's no AWD hybrid? Any improvements to the hybrid system? Looks like range stays the same?
 

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So there's no AWD hybrid? Any improvements to the hybrid system? Looks like range stays the same?
I’m afraid not.. its essentially a cosmetic overhaul for the hybrid.


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Discussion Starter #7
It looks like the only major change for the 2021 hybrid is the headlight improvement to LED.
 

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It looks like the only major change for the 2021 hybrid is the headlight improvement to LED.
Yeah, and pedestrian braking, I guess. I'll keep my 2020 order, that's not compelling and I like the current styling better.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
The lack of HID headlights has kept me from ordering a hybrid. The LED lights might earn my business.
 

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I breathed a huge sigh of relief when the 2021 PacHy was unveiled. No AWD, IMHO much worse exterior styling and marginally worse interior styling. I love my adjustable armrests! The 10.1" display, uConnect 5 and wireless charging pad are definitely attractive, but not nearly enough to make me regret my 2020 purchase.
 
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I breathed a huge sigh of relief when the 2021 PacHy was unveiled. No AWD, IMHO much worse exterior styling and marginally worse interior styling. I love my adjustable armrests! The 10.1" display, uConnect 5 and wireless charging pad are definitely attractive, but not nearly enough to make me regret my 2020 purchase.
Hah too funny. I wasnt going to comment on my feelings toward the new designs because they aren't exactly positive, and different is always hard but grows on you in time.

But since we’re being honest I don't like the SUV styling. I have always been attracted to the distinctive look of the Pacifica because its not the ordinary minivan “look”.

Because theres a social status war between SUV and Minivans; where many wouldn't drive a minivan if chrysler paid them because of the image, SUV’s are much cooler.. Making a minivan look like a SUV will maybe win over some, but I doubt it will reclaim its image? Just makes me feel like its trying to hard or something needy like that.

Either way I don't care for suv styling much anyway..

The closed center console copies luxury sedans, looks nice but I like the functionality of the compartments. I have the usb HDD in the lower compartment with my device cables, Cannon battery charger etc.. its my electronics storage. Where would all that go? A Sedan style console isnt nearly as useful as the current layout.

Those beautiful quilted leatherseat would be absolutely trashed by my kids. the creases and folds are cumb magnets and add complexity (stress) to maintaining a family Vehicle. I have no qualms with the design for adult passengers. But I would imaging most lawyer teams would perfer a BWM 7 series to roll up in as much as having a proper business suit is important.

But for those who just perfer minivans its nice to have the option.. how big is that market? Personally I couldn't own the Pinnacle model for myself.

The FamCam seems neat, the little mirror in ours is hard to get used to. I would go for the 10” sub woofer and upgraded electronics. My kids never liked the “are we there yet” feature.. they want the Nav screen so they can see everything.. and they are young. Honestly even with adult passengers it would be nice to have rear seat nav entry and display.

But hey! it comes with 4 new games.. that should sell itself!
 

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Hah too funny. I wasnt going to comment on my feelings toward the new designs because they aren't exactly positive, and different is always hard but grows on you in time.

But since we’re being honest I don't like the SUV styling. I have always been attracted to the distinctive look of the Pacifica because its not the ordinary minivan “look”.

Because theres a social status war between SUV and Minivans; where many wouldn't drive a minivan if chrysler paid them because of the image, SUV’s are much cooler.. Making a minivan look like a SUV will maybe win over some, but I doubt it will reclaim its image? Just makes me feel like its trying to hard or something needy like that.

Either way I don't care for suv styling much anyway..

The closed center console copies luxury sedans, looks nice but I like the functionality of the compartments. I have the usb HDD in the lower compartment with my device cables, Cannon battery charger etc.. its my electronics storage. Where would all that go? A Sedan style console isnt nearly as useful as the current layout.

Those beautiful quilted leatherseat would be absolutely trashed by my kids. the creases and folds are cumb magnets and add complexity (stress) to maintaining a family Vehicle. I have no qualms with the design for adult passengers. But I would imaging most lawyer teams would perfer a BWM 7 series to roll up in as much as having a proper business suit is important.

But for those who just perfer minivans its nice to have the option.. how big is that market? Personally I couldn't own the Pinnacle model for myself.

The FamCam seems neat, the little mirror in ours is hard to get used to. I would go for the 10” sub woofer and upgraded electronics. My kids never liked the “are we there yet” feature.. they want the Nav screen so they can see everything.. and they are young. Honestly even with adult passengers it would be nice to have rear seat nav entry and display.

But hey! it comes with 4 new games.. that should sell itself!
Same here, i did not like the new fascia, the current model looks better on exterior. 10.1 inch and Uconnect5 is something interesting but not worth to go for a new minivan just for these 2.
 

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The lack of an AWD PHEV is a very large miss. I'm sure several of you just cracked your knuckles in preparation for writing a long dissertation on why you don't think AWD is necessary. We can agree to disagree. I drive mine in snowy mountains and loathe having to chain up (it's the law here when they post "chains required" that all non-AWD vehicles have to chain up, irrespective of snow tires, and it's a $500 fine for not doing it). I also own property up a long unpaved steep mountain road, and the van can't get to the top of my property 6 months out of the year because it spins out trying to go up a steep somewhat muddy gravel road when conditions are wet. My wife's ancient AWD Highlander drives up it without a noticeable slip, and they are wearing the exact same tires.

But, traction debate aside, it's a matter of being competitive and maintaining leadership in the market. Like it or not, vehicles are going towards AWD, and virtually all larger PHEVs and all-electric vehicles are AWD. When Toyota or Honda release their PHEV van, do you think it will be a FWD-only offering? I don't.

In fact, my wife's long-in-the-tooth 2005 Toyota Highlander Hybrid is actually a great example of what Chrysler could have done (and what Toyota is likely to do in a future PHEV Sienna). It is a FWD hybrid with a rear electric motor. There is no drive shaft going aft. If Chrysler had actually committed themselves to the production of real volumes of the PHEV, they could have planned from the start to only offer AWD in the PHEV version and not in the gasoline version, and not needed to make a design allowance for a driveshaft traversing the length of the vehicle (a clunky, heavy item thats space allowance limited interior design options, as has been mentioned in multiple articles about the original design of the Pacifica).

But -- and this is speculation based on my amateur analysis of the way they've handled the PHEV production and sales, not something I have inside or professional knowledge of -- it sure seems like they made the PHEV as a compliance vehicle that was intended to only ever be made in small quantities because of a quirk in the way the CARB (California Air Resorces Board) and EPA "average" fuel efficiency regulations were written. My understanding is that those regs average the fuel mileage of the company's entire fleet of available cars, not taking into account production volumes (beyond a certain very low minimum limit). So, if a hypothetical company makes 3 vehicles getting 16 mpg and one getting 60 (effective)mpg, if the company sells 1 million 16mpg vehicles and only 2,000 boutique PHEVs that get 60mpg, it averages out to a respectable looking 27 mpg, even though the true average of this hypothetical fleet is a much less impressive 16.86 mpg.

Sergio's feelings on the matter were clear: he directly said (of the Fiat e500), “I hope you don’t buy it because every time I sell one it costs me $14,000.” He further said that he thought the economics of electric vehicles don't work. So, whether he was right or wrong, it's undeniable that he wasn't fully committed to electrification and was likely only making small batches of them to check a box on a list of compliance requirements, as well as get some limited engineering experience in the realm of electrification. That said, I think it's clear that the engineers and designers knocked it out of the park with the Pacifica. No other company has released a PHEV vehicle in its weight and utility class that has even remotely similar specs in the three years its been on the market...but that won't last long.

I understand that there are a lot of behind-the-scenes confounders here, like: (1) FCA is in the midst of a merger, which introduces all manner of uncertainty and reduces the company's incentives to take risks. (2) When they started building these, costs were much higher and battery availabllity was poorer (thanks in part to Tesla buying up nearly all the resources necessary to make them), so Sergio was quite likely correct that the economics didn't work out, and probably still don't. (3) They never expected Google/Waymo to litterally buy more PHEV vans than FCA had planned manufacturing capacity for. (4) They had tons of issues (seriously expensive recalls) with the 2017s that likely sapped engineering resources from working on the next gen designs. (5) And much more I'm sure I'm not aware of.

So, this isn't one of those conspiratorial screeds or rank armchair quarterbacking; I don't think FCA is necessarily derelict, and I don't think I certainly know better than they do. But as an outside observer and an owner of a beloved 2018 Pacifica Hybrid who would really like to see this model succeed and be available for years to come, I really hope they don't get too distracted by mergers and keeping-up-with-the-SUVs cosmetics and miss the boat on being competitive in the electrified market.
 

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In fact, my wife's long-in-the-tooth 2005 Toyota Highlander Hybrid is actually a great example of what Chrysler could have done (and what Toyota is likely to do in a future PHEV Sienna). It is a FWD hybrid with a rear electric motor. There is no drive shaft going aft. If Chrysler had actually committed themselves to the production of real volumes of the PHEV, they could have planned from the start to only offer AWD in the PHEV version and not in the gasoline version, and not needed to make a design allowance for a driveshaft traversing the length of the vehicle (a clunky, heavy item thats space allowance limited interior design options, as has been mentioned in multiple articles about the original design of the Pacifica).
It looks like the Highlander has the same type of powertrain as the Prius AWD, a normal Toyota hybrid planetary gear-type system for the FWD and then a second, small, electric motor for the RWD? I agree, for the PacHy that would seem to be the obvious choice, but that wouldn't work on the ICE model. Since in practice the vast majority of people do not choose the PacHy (do we actually have sales numbers for the hybrid?) they probably concluded that it wouldn't pay off to design an AWD system that only worked on the hybrid.

Traction-wise, those systems also can't send as much power to the rear wheels as a mechanical system, since the rear motor is fairly small. But that doesn't seem likely to matter for the majority of situations.
 

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The lack of an AWD PHEV is a very large miss. I'm sure several of you just cracked your knuckles in preparation for writing a long dissertation on why you don't think AWD is necessary. We can agree to disagree. I drive mine in snowy mountains and loathe having to chain up (it's the law here when they post "chains required" that all non-AWD vehicles have to chain up, irrespective of snow tires, and it's a $500 fine for not doing it). I also own property up a long unpaved steep mountain road, and the van can't get to the top of my property 6 months out of the year because it spins out trying to go up a steep somewhat muddy gravel road when conditions are wet. My wife's ancient AWD Highlander drives up it without a noticeable slip, and they are wearing the exact same tires.

But, traction debate aside, it's a matter of being competitive and maintaining leadership in the market. Like it or not, vehicles are going towards AWD, and virtually all larger PHEVs and all-electric vehicles are AWD. When Toyota or Honda release their PHEV van, do you think it will be a FWD-only offering? I don't.

In fact, my wife's long-in-the-tooth 2005 Toyota Highlander Hybrid is actually a great example of what Chrysler could have done (and what Toyota is likely to do in a future PHEV Sienna). It is a FWD hybrid with a rear electric motor. There is no drive shaft going aft. If Chrysler had actually committed themselves to the production of real volumes of the PHEV, they could have planned from the start to only offer AWD in the PHEV version and not in the gasoline version, and not needed to make a design allowance for a driveshaft traversing the length of the vehicle (a clunky, heavy item thats space allowance limited interior design options, as has been mentioned in multiple articles about the original design of the Pacifica).

But -- and this is speculation based on my amateur analysis of the way they've handled the PHEV production and sales, not something I have inside or professional knowledge of -- it sure seems like they made the PHEV as a compliance vehicle that was intended to only ever be made in small quantities because of a quirk in the way the CARB (California Air Resorces Board) and EPA "average" fuel efficiency regulations were written. My understanding is that those regs average the fuel mileage of the company's entire fleet of available cars, not taking into account production volumes (beyond a certain very low minimum limit). So, if a hypothetical company makes 3 vehicles getting 16 mpg and one getting 60 (effective)mpg, if the company sells 1 million 16mpg vehicles and only 2,000 boutique PHEVs that get 60mpg, it averages out to a respectable looking 27 mpg, even though the true average of this hypothetical fleet is a much less impressive 16.86 mpg.

Sergio's feelings on the matter were clear: he directly said (of the Fiat e500), “I hope you don’t buy it because every time I sell one it costs me $14,000.” He further said that he thought the economics of electric vehicles don't work. So, whether he was right or wrong, it's undeniable that he wasn't fully committed to electrification and was likely only making small batches of them to check a box on a list of compliance requirements, as well as get some limited engineering experience in the realm of electrification. That said, I think it's clear that the engineers and designers knocked it out of the park with the Pacifica. No other company has released a PHEV vehicle in its weight and utility class that has even remotely similar specs in the three years its been on the market...but that won't last long.

I understand that there are a lot of behind-the-scenes confounders here, like: (1) FCA is in the midst of a merger, which introduces all manner of uncertainty and reduces the company's incentives to take risks. (2) When they started building these, costs were much higher and battery availabllity was poorer (thanks in part to Tesla buying up nearly all the resources necessary to make them), so Sergio was quite likely correct that the economics didn't work out, and probably still don't. (3) They never expected Google/Waymo to litterally buy more PHEV vans than FCA had planned manufacturing capacity for. (4) They had tons of issues (seriously expensive recalls) with the 2017s that likely sapped engineering resources from working on the next gen designs. (5) And much more I'm sure I'm not aware of.

So, this isn't one of those conspiratorial screeds or rank armchair quarterbacking; I don't think FCA is necessarily derelict, and I don't think I certainly know better than they do. But as an outside observer and an owner of a beloved 2018 Pacifica Hybrid who would really like to see this model succeed and be available for years to come, I really hope they don't get too distracted by mergers and keeping-up-with-the-SUVs cosmetics and miss the boat on being competitive in the electrified market.
You nailed it.

Kevin Mets, Chief engineer of the Pacifica Hybrid states in Autoline: After Hours episode 359 that the Pachy is a conformance vehicle. Hats off
To them, they did a get job of it! Its Chrysler themselves that is the problem factor in regard to this vehicle. The management of inventory and education of the dealers, the product planning that sells a limited without memory seats? Just to make memory seats a distinguishing feature in the next model year! Not to mention the software update fails; updates that cant fix the problems with scheduled charging, uConnect crashes the like, the updates just caused more problems including fires! IMO, This all stems from the way FCA corperate and the franchises handle themselves with the public and the level of importance the Hybrid holds for them. Personally, chrysler cares is the best aspect of FCA.. but these are all different topics.

He goes on the say that Chrysler commissioned them to build a hybrid vehicle and they had their choice of platform.. check it out in the podcast below. Its a shame the lady in this is trying so hard to prove she knows stuff and doesn't always let Kevin Mets answer questions Like she should..

like whats the point have having a lead engineer guest if you dont let them talk. Haha..

 

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Interesting as it’s kinda dumb to compare this vehicle to a Toyota Highlander. Have to compare it to Kia,Honda,Toyota minivans . I do think it was a missed opportunity but the take rate on hybrid plug in is low for vans , don’t confuse hybrid with hybrid plug ins . We will see when Toyota release the sienna and Kia there’s as well .
 

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It's a bit strange to me that after announcing the eAWD systems for the upcoming Jeep PHEVs, that some version of that isn't used for the Pachy. Perhaps they didn't want to commit the engineering dollars towards AWD for the Pachy after the budgeting for the system designed for the gas versions, but I agree, it's a miss.

Beyond that, I absolutely agree that FCA under Sergio basically dismissed the entire EV movement, to the point that they are now playing catchup while Ford is developing eF-150s, Mach-Es and partnerships with Rivian, while GM is dedicating a factory towards EV construction and 11 upcoming EV models. I feel FCA is being ridiculously silent towards full BEV plans, and that the PSA partnership is an attempt to "catch-up" to the market. Ironic that FCA was the first to kill off most small cars/sedans earlier on this decade to focus on SUVs/trucks, and Ford/GM followed suit...seems like the trend directionality has turned.
 

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Yes well if you heard about ms Mary the gm girl , she had botched many products and she kind of spews Loy’s of non correct info . Just yesterday she rescinded on some electric projects , just saying . And for record I knew there’s be no awd electrics Pacifica as the take is so low and it’s mostly geared towards autonomous corporations
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Let the ICE Pacificas introduce the AWD system and work out the early bugs. In a year or two I bet it shows up on the PacHy.
 
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