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Discussion Starter #21
The standard EVSE communication protocol (forgot its name) is simple and hard to mess up. The problem may be in the Tesla part of it, AFAIK it is completely proprietary.
 

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The standard EVSE communication protocol (forgot its name) is simple and hard to mess up. The problem may be in the Tesla part of it, AFAIK it is completely proprietary.
It's just weird that there's only an issue with the PacHy. All other EVs seem to be fine with the Tesla adapter.
 

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It's just weird that there's only an issue with the PacHy. All other EVs seem to be fine with the Tesla adapter.
Another thing to keep in mind. As far as I know, there is no standard J1772 charger that will not work with the PacHy. I’ve plugged at least six different brand chargers into my van and they all worked. If you’re saying the Tesla charger doesn’t work properly with the adapter I’d be more inclined to think the problem would be on Tesla’s end. I’ll have to do a little research on this and see if I can find our more about the problem.

It could also be that Tesla added some kind of variation to the standard protocol used by other EVs. It’s possible that other manufacturers have incorporated Tesla’s variation into their systems but Chrysler chose to keep a strict adherence to the standard as it was written.
 

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Another thing to keep in mind. As far as I know, there is no standard J1772 charger that will not work with the PacHy. I’ve plugged at least six different brand chargers into my van and they all worked. If you’re saying the Tesla charger doesn’t work properly with the adapter I’d be more inclined to think the problem would be on Tesla’s end. I’ll have to do a little research on this and see if I can find our more about the problem.

It could also be that Tesla added some kind of variation to the standard protocol used by other EVs. It’s possible that other manufacturers have incorporated Tesla’s variation into their systems but Chrysler chose to keep a strict adherence to the standard as it was written.
From what I understand, the Tesla adapter will work with a PacHy, just not 100% as with all the other EVs.

After doing a bit of research on the history of EV development, it's certainly possible that all the other EV manufacturers added a Tesla-specific protocol. Tesla was one of the first (if not 'the' first) production EVs to be able to use the J-1772 (with an adapter) on the MY2008 Tesla roadster. The Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt didn't arrive until MY 2011 (the Mitsubishi i-MiEV followed for MY2012).

So, with Tesla being the first, I can easily see the follow-up EV manufacturers retaining the Tesla protocal 'just in case' the need ever arose to use a Tesla charger.

Who knows, maybe Tesla used to let anyone install their protocol for free, but now wants a fee for it. And, given all the proprietary stuff on Teslas (and how being able to use the Tesla HPWC isn't exactly a common availability), FCA just skipped it on the PacHy.

As an aside, I have to say I'm a little irritated at Teslas, in general. All their stuff is proprietary, yet they have a J-1772 adapter available so their vehicles can be charged at non-Tesla charger stations. If that wasn't bad enough, because of the high-capacity battery Teslas use, they can be sitting at a commercial J-1772 charger for a long time for a full charge, much longer than any other non-Tesla EV.

You don't see many of the top-tier Tesla S or X models at regular chargers, but there sure seem to be a lot of the more plebian Model 3 using them.

The bottom line is it's relatively easy for a Tesla owner to use any non-Tesla charger, but a whole lot more difficult for a non-Tesla vehicle to use a Tesla charger (if you can even find the HPWC version that operates at 240v).

A case in point is a local Whole Foods market that has a couple of standard J-1772 chargers near the entrance. There are also eight Tesla Superchargers located behind the store not more than, literally, 100 feet away. Yet I'll occasionally see a Tesla Model 3 parked at one of the two 240v chargers near the entrance when there are plenty of free Tesla superchargers in the back!
 

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From what I understand, the Tesla adapter will work with a PacHy, just not 100% as with all the other EVs.

After doing a bit of research on the history of EV development, it's certainly possible that all the other EV manufacturers added a Tesla-specific protocol. Tesla was one of the first (if not 'the' first) production EVs to be able to use the J-1772 (with an adapter) on the MY2008 Tesla roadster. The Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt didn't arrive until MY 2011 (the Mitsubishi i-MiEV followed for MY2012).

So, with Tesla being the first, I can easily see the follow-up EV manufacturers retaining the Tesla protocal 'just in case' the need ever arose to use a Tesla charger.

Who knows, maybe Tesla used to let anyone install their protocol for free, but now wants a fee for it. And, given all the proprietary stuff on Teslas (and how being able to use the Tesla HPWC isn't exactly a common availability), FCA just skipped it on the PacHy.

As an aside, I have to say I'm a little irritated at Teslas, in general. All their stuff is proprietary, yet they have a J-1772 adapter available so their vehicles can be charged at non-Tesla charger stations. If that wasn't bad enough, because of the high-capacity battery Teslas use, they can be sitting at a commercial J-1772 charger for a long time for a full charge, much longer than any other non-Tesla EV.

You don't see many of the top-tier Tesla S or X models at regular chargers, but there sure seem to be a lot of the more plebian Model 3 using them.

The bottom line is it's relatively easy for a Tesla owner to use any non-Tesla charger, but a whole lot more difficult for a non-Tesla vehicle to use a Tesla charger (if you can even find the HPWC version that operates at 240v).

A case in point is a local Whole Foods market that has a couple of standard J-1772 chargers near the entrance. There are also eight Tesla Superchargers located behind the store not more than, literally, 100 feet away. Yet I'll occasionally see a Tesla Model 3 parked at one of the two 240v chargers near the entrance when there are plenty of free Tesla superchargers in the back!
I agree. It’s a shame that Tesla did all of this proprietary stuff. In our day and age ‘open source’ usually works better. I was at a hospital in a nearby town a few weeks ago and there were two J1772 chargers in the parking lot. One of the chargers wasn’t functioning and the other was plugged into a Tesla. I was at the hospital for probably 8-9 hours while my brother was having a surgery. The Tesla was plugged into the working charger the whole time. I almost unplugged it so that I could have a short 2-hour charge but I didn’t see any kind of external charge indicator that would have told me whether it was finished charging. After several trips out to the parking lot to check if/when the good charger would be free I finally fiddled with the non-working charger and figured out what the problem was and got it to start charging my PacHy.
 

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I agree. It’s a shame that Tesla did all of this proprietary stuff. In our day and age ‘open source’ usually works better. I was at a hospital in a nearby town a few weeks ago and there were two J1772 chargers in the parking lot. One of the chargers wasn’t functioning and the other was plugged into a Tesla. I was at the hospital for probably 8-9 hours while my brother was having a surgery. The Tesla was plugged into the working charger the whole time. I almost unplugged it so that I could have a short 2-hour charge but I didn’t see any kind of external charge indicator that would have told me whether it was finished charging. After several trips out to the parking lot to check if/when the good charger would be free I finally fiddled with the non-working charger and figured out what the problem was and got it to start charging my PacHy.
That's unfortunate (but all too common) about your hospital situation. There's a local hospital within 1.5 miles of me that has three public chargers (with the possibility of a fourth if the next, non-EV parking spot over is free). Since I've had my PacHy over the last five weeks, there's only been one occasion that all three spots were filled, and two of them were with Teslas, with one being a Model S where the driver couldn't be bothered to even make it 'look' like he was charging (not plugged in). Fortunately, that was the instance where the next spot over was free so I was able to get the fourth plug (normally reserved for private parking on the opposite side of the column) to reach.

To be fair, Tesla just got too far ahead of the game when they came out with long-range EVs much sooner than anyone else. They needed those free superchargers to make their cars even remotely feasible, yet they certainly couldn't use J1772 plugs with them. It would only take one yahoo with a Leaf trying to quickly charge up only to have it explode and injure someone to take Tesla down. Fisker and his exotic (but burning) Karma EV cars didn't last long.

Including the new, 'stripped' Tesla Model 3, there are now five long-range (over 220 miles on a single charge) relatively affordable EVs: Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro, and the latter four can all use the CHAdeMO-style quick charger. I don't know what impact Tesla sales had on encouraging development of them, but it surely didn't hurt.

But there are still issues, and one of the main ones is finding an available charger. There was a recent, very good Car and Driver article on the new Bolt and Kona (the new model Leaf wasn't yet available) and the biggest challenge was finding working, available chargers (and this was on the West Coast!). Oh, they could find a charger easily enough, but, most times, there was some problem to actually use it, with being blocked by another vehicle being the main one. The exorbitant price of charging at most of them doesn't help, either.

Having access to Tesla's nationwide network of Superchargers is the main reason that, if I were in the market for an affordable, long-range BEV, I'm afraid I'd have to choose a Tesla over the others with it being a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
 

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To be fair, Tesla just got too far ahead of the game when they came out with long-range EVs much sooner than anyone else. They needed those free superchargers to make their cars even remotely feasible, yet they certainly couldn't use J1772 plugs with them. It would only take one yahoo with a Leaf trying to quickly charge up only to have it explode and injure someone to take Tesla down. Fisker and his exotic (but burning) Karma EV cars didn't last long.

Having access to Tesla's nationwide network of Superchargers is the main reason that, if I were in the market for an affordable, long-range BEV, I'm afraid I'd have to choose a Tesla over the others with it being a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
I wouldn’t count on those Tesla Superchargers being free forever. Also, I don’t think Tesla’s avoidance of the J1772 connector was out of fear of liability. The actual charging electronics are within the vehicle itself. The EVSE only provides power and indicates what its maximum charging ampacity is. If a Leaf were able to connect to a Supercharger then it would only draw as much current as it was comfortable with. In fact, if I plug my PacHy into a J1772 charger that has 80-amp capacity it will still only draw about 30 amps and it will still take two hours to charge.
 

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I wouldn’t count on those Tesla Superchargers being free forever. Also, I don’t think Tesla’s avoidance of the J1772 connector was out of fear of liability. The actual charging electronics are within the vehicle itself. The EVSE only provides power and indicates what its maximum charging ampacity is. If a Leaf were able to connect to a Supercharger then it would only draw as much current as it was comfortable with. In fact, if I plug my PacHy into a J1772 charger that has 80-amp capacity it will still only draw about 30 amps and it will still take two hours to charge.
I went back and re-read the caveat for the 'TeslaTap' adapter and here's what it said about using it with the PacHy:

Through thorough testing we have learned that the TeslaTap will work on Pacifica's and Honda's with the following exceptions:

  • If using a High Power Wall Connector it must not be set for over 80 AMPS or under 32 AMPS.
  • Only compatible with some of the new Tesla Model 3 UMC's and you must use only the NEMA 14-50 or 5-15 connector.
What's even more strange is something I read on a Tesla forum about a virtually identical product being sold as the 'JDapter Stub' (which does not have any sort of caveat about working with a PacHy) and that's that the TeslaTap may simply be a cheap knock-off of the JDapter Stub.

Regardless, at the price ($240), it doesn't seem worth it both out of safety concern as well as how often it might be used. I did additional research on those Tesla HPWC Destination Chargers where it would be possible to plug-in a non-Tesla and, as might be expected, virtually all of them are at restricted, high-end hotels with very few (if any) located at the more accessible Supercharger stations.

Additionally, the whole idea of the free Tesla Supercharging perk is in error, as well. Tesla S and X vehicles (the expensive ones) purchased prior to Nov 2, 2018 got 400kWh per year (~1000 miles, which sure doesn't seem like much) free Supercharging. After that (and all other models, regardless of purchase date, which includes the more plebian Model 3) pay for Supercharger use ($0.28/kWh).

So, yeah, getting a Tesla and being able to have access to a Supercharger is nice, but it most definitely isn't even free (although, at one time, there was a $2500 unlimited Supercharger use option).

It also makes it a bit more clear as to why some Tesla drivers are using a J1772 charger instead of a nearby Supercharger: the J1772 is free and the Supercharger is not.
 

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I stayed at a Country Inn & Suites by Radisson that had Tesla Destination chargers. The hotel offered a JDapter Stub for a $350 deposit. I used it twice, and each time it took some fiddling to get my PacHy charging. But it eventually worked, and I appreciated the free electricity.
 

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I went back and re-read the caveat for the 'TeslaTap' adapter and here's what it said about using it with the PacHy:

Through thorough testing we have learned that the TeslaTap will work on Pacifica's and Honda's with the following exceptions:

  • If using a High Power Wall Connector it must not be set for over 80 AMPS or under 32 AMPS.
  • Only compatible with some of the new Tesla Model 3 UMC's and you must use only the NEMA 14-50 or 5-15 connector.
What's even more strange is something I read on a Tesla forum about a virtually identical product being sold as the 'JDapter Stub' (which does not have any sort of caveat about working with a PacHy) and that's that the TeslaTap may simply be a cheap knock-off of the JDapter Stub.

Regardless, at the price ($240), it doesn't seem worth it both out of safety concern as well as how often it might be used. I did additional research on those Tesla HPWC Destination Chargers where it would be possible to plug-in a non-Tesla and, as might be expected, virtually all of them are at restricted, high-end hotels with very few (if any) located at the more accessible Supercharger stations.

Additionally, the whole idea of the free Tesla Supercharging perk is in error, as well. Tesla S and X vehicles (the expensive ones) purchased prior to Nov 2, 2018 got 400kWh per year (~1000 miles, which sure doesn't seem like much) free Supercharging. After that (and all other models, regardless of purchase date, which includes the more plebian Model 3) pay for Supercharger use ($0.28/kWh).

So, yeah, getting a Tesla and being able to have access to a Supercharger is nice, but it most definitely isn't even free (although, at one time, there was a $2500 unlimited Supercharger use option).

It also makes it a bit more clear as to why some Tesla drivers are using a J1772 charger instead of a nearby Supercharger: the J1772 is free and the Supercharger is not.
That’s interesting. I didn’t know that about only 400kWh per year free. I think if I had a Tesla I would, for the most part, be satisfied with charging it via a J1772 charger with an adapter. As few miles as I would drive it on a daily basis I think I’d easily be able to top it off in my garage with a 30A charger.
 

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I stayed at a Country Inn & Suites by Radisson that had Tesla Destination chargers. The hotel offered a JDapter Stub for a $350 deposit. I used it twice, and each time it took some fiddling to get my PacHy charging. But it eventually worked, and I appreciated the free electricity.
Interesting. Exactly what kind of ‘fiddling’ did you have to do to get it to work?
 

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That’s interesting. I didn’t know that about only 400kWh per year free. I think if I had a Tesla I would, for the most part, be satisfied with charging it via a J1772 charger with an adapter. As few miles as I would drive it on a daily basis I think I’d easily be able to top it off in my garage with a 30A charger.
Yeah, it sheds a whole different light on all the Teslas observed using J1772 chargers. It's aggravating, to be sure, but at least there seems to be a financial reason for it, i.e., they're saving their supercharger 'credits' for road trips (at least those expensive Tesla models bought before November, 2018).

I wonder if potential Tesla buyers are fully aware of the cost of using superchargers. Seems like the idea of free, unlimited supercharger use was a major selling point for buying a Tesla (at least for initial sales when they started up) and, without that substantial perk, well, they don't seem nearly as attractive. I'd sure be miffed if I bought or leased a Tesla and discovered later there was a financial burden to use a supercharger. I mean, since November of last year, anyone buying or leasing a Tesla (any Tesla) will now have to pay to use a supercharger 100% of the time.

In fact, that, in and of itself, is rather irritating. Evidently, to make things easy and seamless, those superchargers recognize each individual Tesla when they plug-in and charge the owner via the VIN. I don't know if they simply send you a bill or if a credit card is required to be on file with Tesla.

Then there are those new, high-power V3 superchargers that charge at the rate of 75 miles/5 minutes. Surely, those are going to be even more expensive to use, maybe a whole lot more than fossil fuel. Not to mention the toll that charging that fast is going to take on the longevity of the batteries.
 

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I stayed at a Country Inn & Suites by Radisson that had Tesla Destination chargers. The hotel offered a JDapter Stub for a $350 deposit. I used it twice, and each time it took some fiddling to get my PacHy charging. But it eventually worked, and I appreciated the free electricity.
Interesting. Exactly what kind of ‘fiddling’ did you have to do to get it to work?
There wasn't a satisfying click when attaching the Tesla charger to the JDapter Stub. It was hard to tell how far to push them together. On my first try, the PacHy said to service the charging system. I tried pushing the adapter in further a couple times before it worked.

After my first successful charge, I struggled to separate the Tesla charger from the JDapter Stub because I had pushed them so hard together.

The JDapter Stub from the hotel came with an attached "Please Read" card, which I of course didn't notice on my first charge attempt. That card said to wait 30 seconds after connecting the Tesla charger to the adapter, before connecting it to the vehicle. That didn't seem to help on the next day though--I still needed fiddling to get the charge going.
 
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