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Discussion Starter #1
I've been communicating with the author of the software for a while, and he finally released a version with the Hybrid support. Not all modules are accessible, but reading BCPM yields a huge massive of information. I wouldn't even try to post it here, I created a paste https://pastebin.com/AZPuzxXq
Most of the information seems to be correct and aligns with the Witech readings shared by @m0ebius604 although I found some additional data, and at least one clearly wrong item (line 22). The State of Health data starts on line 228 and it answers some questions we had. It seems like "HV Bat SOH: 91.37 % and " SOH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 %" do not indicate degradation.
From my cursory analysis it seems that the battery maintains a huge safety buffer on the bottom. For those who want to go over the data and compare with their readings, my van is about 3 months old with close to 4000 miles. At least 2500 of them were in the Hybrid mode. At the time of the scan the dashboard SOC was 2%

 

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Cool, your still working on this.. I had given up for now due to lack of useful data points.

Its fascinating that your “Full Ah Capacity” line 232 has dropped from 51Ah to 47 like mine..

So you state that HVBatSOH and the other “do not indicate degradation”..

Perhaps you can expand on your insight for this? :) has the developer a better understanding of these PIDs?

Otherwise this tool looks very useful tool for collecting the larger data points!

Is it free? What OBD adaptor is needed?
 

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Very cool! Reminds me of the data I get in LeafSpy (for my LEAF).

Btw, do you think info about FORM (fuel/oil refresh) will be available on OBD II? It seems it would be useful to know if FORM activated because of fuel, oil, or spark plugs.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
AlfaOBD is $49, the free demo version allows to read the data and log or graph it for a short time. Compared to the $1000+ Witech access alfaOBD is almost free. It should work with any ELM 327 Bluetooth OBDII reader. The one I have is one of the cheapest.
I didn't have to bypass the Security Gateway (SGM). As I understand its function, it blocks writing to the car, but allows reading. My guess that clearing the codes, running diagnostic procedures or changing car features will need the SGM bypass. The bypass itself is nothing more than a couple of wires. Plug and play bypass connectors are sold for around $50.

Not sure about the FORM. alfaOBD reads each module individually, we don't yet know which one is responsible for entering FORM. There are a couple of Hybrid related modules alfaOBD doesn't yet support- OBCM and PIM area among them.
I did another scan at indicated 98% SOC https://pastebin.com/sxQ6GFKS We can draw some conclusions.
The indicated 0% corresponds to the cell voltage of 3.5V, 100% to 4.1V (I'm rounding here). The rated 0% and 100% voltages vary with the cell chemistry, typically they are 3V and 4.2V. So we see the safety buffers on both ends. The discharge curve is nonlinear the 0.1V delta on the top end doesn't mean that the top buffer is only 2.5%.

42358


The average cell voltage is 3.7V, and it is used in the capacity ratings. PacHy battery has 96 cells.

My first paste:
Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
   State of Charge Last Stored: 30.20 %
   Power-up State of Charge: 30.20 %
   State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 29.41 %
   Max SOC: 31.76 %
   Average SOC: 31.37 %
   Min SOC: 29.02 %
When I started the van, it indicated 2% and went down to 1% as fiddled with the app.

Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
   State of Charge Last Stored: 88.24 %
   Power-up State of Charge: 88.24 %
   State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 85.88 %
   Max SOC: 85.88 %
   Average SOC: 85.49 %
   Min SOC: 84.71 %
This one started with 100%, went down to 98%

Code:
State of Health:
   HV Bat SOH: 91.37 %
   HV Bat SOH Low: 99.22 %
   SOH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 %
   Full AmpHour Capacity: 47.60 Ah
   Remaining AmpHour Capacity: 36.40 Ah
This snipped didn't change between the two readings.
Let's convert 36.4Ah to kwh: 36.4*3.7*96= 12.9kwh- it matches the observed full charge kwh. So this PID indicates the capacity available to use.
47.6Ah is 16.9kwh- also a good match to the stated 16.5kwh. It is common for new batteries to slightly exceed the specs.
The rest of the data is harder to consolidate. From the first two snippets it seems that the available capacity is about 60% of the nominal. (88% - 29%) But 36.4Ah is 76% of 47.6, not 60%. And if the graph above is valid for our battery, 3.5V is less than 20%, not 30%.
OH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 % may mean the real SOC when the vehicle indicates 100% charge. The 10% top buffer and 15% bottom one make sense, but why the first paste shows 30% on the bottom?
 

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AlfaOBD is $49, the free demo version allows to read the data and log or graph it for a short time. Compared to the $1000+ Witech access alfaOBD is almost free. It should work with any ELM 327 Bluetooth OBDII reader. The one I have is one of the cheapest.
I didn't have to bypass the Security Gateway (SGM). As I understand its function, it blocks writing to the car, but allows reading. My guess that clearing the codes, running diagnostic procedures or changing car features will need the SGM bypass. The bypass itself is nothing more than a couple of wires. Plug and play bypass connectors are sold for around $50.

Not sure about the FORM. alfaOBD reads each module individually, we don't yet know which one is responsible for entering FORM. There are a couple of Hybrid related modules alfaOBD doesn't yet support- OBCM and PIM area among them.
I did another scan at indicated 98% SOC https://pastebin.com/sxQ6GFKS We can draw some conclusions.
The indicated 0% corresponds to the cell voltage of 3.5V, 100% to 4.1V (I'm rounding here). The rated 0% and 100% voltages vary with the cell chemistry, typically they are 3V and 4.2V. So we see the safety buffers on both ends. The discharge curve is nonlinear the 0.1V delta on the top end doesn't mean that the top buffer is only 2.5%.

View attachment 42358

The average cell voltage is 3.7V, and it is used in the capacity ratings. PacHy battery has 96 cells.

My first paste:
Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
   State of Charge Last Stored: 30.20 %
   Power-up State of Charge: 30.20 %
   State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 29.41 %
   Max SOC: 31.76 %
   Average SOC: 31.37 %
   Min SOC: 29.02 %
When I started the van, it indicated 2% and went down to 1% as fiddled with the app.

Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
   State of Charge Last Stored: 88.24 %
   Power-up State of Charge: 88.24 %
   State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 85.88 %
   Max SOC: 85.88 %
   Average SOC: 85.49 %
   Min SOC: 84.71 %
This one started with 100%, went down to 98%

Code:
State of Health:
   HV Bat SOH: 91.37 %
   HV Bat SOH Low: 99.22 %
   SOH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 %
   Full AmpHour Capacity: 47.60 Ah
   Remaining AmpHour Capacity: 36.40 Ah
This snipped didn't change between the two readings.
This is an excellent synopsis of the system. (y)

The rest of the data is harder to consolidate. From the first two snippets it seems that the available capacity is about 60% of the nominal. (88% - 29%) But 36.4Ah is 76% of 47.6, not 60%. And if the graph above is valid for our battery, 3.5V is less than 20%, not 30%.
OH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 % may mean the real SOC when the vehicle indicates 100% charge. The 10% top buffer and 15% bottom one make sense, but why the first paste shows 30% on the bottom?
Heres where things get interesting. This info should be sampled over multiple vehicles. I have observed some variation in my vehicle with your data - not discounting your data..

I’m on the original BCPM and PIM software (pre v94) however.

Maybe we can create a format for reporting this data so it can be compared easily.

Just full and empty enough? I need to find a way to port the data out if wiTech easily. The screenshots suck.
 

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Code:
State of Health:
   HV Bat SOH: 91.37 %
   HV Bat SOH Low: 99.22 %
   SOH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 %
   Full AmpHour Capacity: 47.60 Ah
   Remaining AmpHour Capacity: 36.40 Ah
This snipped didn't change between the two readings.
Some observations:

The above valves DO change over extended periods of time..

Recheck them in the following months.

Why did you conclude these do not indicate battery decay?

Let's convert 36.4Ah to kwh: 36.4*3.7*96= 12.9kwh- it matches the observed full charge kwh. So this PID indicates the capacity available to use.
47.6Ah is 16.9kwh- also a good match to the stated 16.5kwh. It is common for new batteries to slightly exceed the specs.
What I see here is slightly different. Because, as you stated below, it doesnt seem to add up.

The rest of the data is harder to consolidate. From the first two snippets it seems that the available capacity is about 60% of the nominal. (88% - 29%) But 36.4Ah is 76% of 47.6, not 60%. And if the graph above is valid for our battery, 3.5V is less than 20%, not 30%.
OH Full AmpHour Capacity: 91.76 % may mean the real SOC when the vehicle indicates 100% charge.
Heres how I interpret this data.

47.6Ah is the maximum capacity, the 36.4Ah is the capacity (as you state) at a full charge but still includes the protected bottom end margin.

The 10% top buffer and 15% bottom one make sense, but why the first paste shows 30% on the bottom?
My vehicle is different here IIRC..

I remember seeing 25% battery at 0% on the gauge. From my understanding formed then, I had 25% saved on the bottom, and little less than 10% saved on the top for a total of about 35-40% of a buffer.

Or about 60% of the nominal.

Thats would mean 10.7kwh is useable, and the 2kwh difference between recorded charge sessions is the charge loss.

There are members here that record only 11kwh for full charge also.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
The above valves DO change over extended periods of time..

Recheck them in the following months.

Why did you conclude these do not indicate battery decay?
You're right, my memory of how the brand new battery looks like was false. I checked my own post https://www.pacificaforums.com/threads/dead-battery-adventures.40275/page-5#post-534567 and the SOH on a brand new battery was almost 99%. The Ah capacities were also higher. But I didn't see a noticeable difference in the full charge energy or driving distance over the same route.
The current battery is just a few months old, the total mileage is just over 4000 miles, but most of it were long trips, so not many full cycles. (A side note- with all the data BCPM collects, it doesn't count the deep charge/ discharge cycles).
Could the SOH High operate on a different scale and be at 0% when the actual capacity is at 70% and the battery is deemed defective?
I hope someone else can scan a brand new van and post the values.

47.6Ah is the maximum capacity, the 36.4Ah is the capacity (as you state) at a full charge but still includes the protected bottom end margin.
Today I scanned after running on gas, the battery was at 0. https://pastebin.com/8wSxQVN6

Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
   State of Charge Last Stored: 32.55 %
   Power-up State of Charge: 32.55 %
   State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 25.10 %
   Max SOC: 28.24 %
   Average SOC: 27.06 %
   Min SOC: 24.71 %
The top buffer is no more than 10%, it can't account the difference between 46 and 36Ah.

Other takeaways comparing the last two scans:

Code:
   HV Battery Miles: 1732400.07 miles
   Charge KW/Hours: 804.90 kWh
   vs.
   HV Battery Miles: 1732453.19 miles
   Charge KW/Hours: 811.90 kWh
Despite the large number in front, the 53 miles difference looks about right.
The Hybrid system regenerated 7kwh in these 53 miles- not an insignificant amount.
 

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I am planning to order a 2020 soon, so if you tell us how to collect the data I will. I have an OBD II adapter already and Android phone, but am not sure on the software. If I need to buy this $49 app, I will, but for the sake of the community it would be good if gathering data could be cheaper.

Thanks!
 

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I checked my own post https://www.pacificaforums.com/threads/dead-battery-adventures.40275/page-5#post-534567 and the SOH on a brand new battery was almost 99%. The Ah capacities were also higher. But I didn't see a noticeable difference in the full charge energy or driving distance over the same route.
The current battery is just a few months old, the total mileage is just over 4000 miles, but most of it were long trips, so not many full cycles. (A side note- with all the data BCPM collects, it doesn't count the deep charge/ discharge cycles).
Could the SOH High operate on a different scale and be at 0% when the actual capacity is at 70% and the battery is deemed defective?
I hope someone else can scan a brand new van and post the values.
Your new HV battery seemed to adapt the values to the chemistry as it has cycles put on it? I doubt a new battery has enough history to report anything more useful than yours did, but would love to see a few more examples.

I don't know if they deem the battery dead at 70% or 0% - after the first time I pulled this data out of my BCPM, I was a little shocked to see only 89.x% SOH in only a year - and I asked the same questions.. but then 8 months later my HVBatSOH decreased by only 0.4% over a winter and daily charge cycling.

Now your BCPM data is closer to my vehicle when i had around 10,000mi

Would need to see more vehicle scans to figure this one out i think.. maybe some higher mileage units.

Today I scanned after running on gas, the battery was at 0. https://pastebin.com/8wSxQVN6

Code:
State of Charge Last Stored:
    State of Charge - HVBatSOC: 25.10
Theres the 25% i recall ;)
Code:
 Max SOC: 28.24 %
   Average SOC: 27.06 %
   Min SOC: 24.71 %
This Looks to me as a short term history. So driving 0% HV charge in hybrid mode it would be capturing the Charge Sustain mode functioning (min 25% to max 28%)


The top buffer is no more than 10%, it can't account the difference between 46 and 36Ah.
I see what you mean. :unsure: The math I had was backward.. with 7Ah on the bottom and 11.9Ah on the top.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Your new HV battery seemed to adapt the values to the chemistry as it has cycles put on it?
Yeah, this is what I'm asking myself- what is the learning process for the new battery? Maybe SOC goes from 99 % to 91% in a matter of the first few cycles.
This Looks to me as a short term history. So driving 0% HV charge in hybrid mode it would be capturing the Charge Sustain mode functioning (min 25% to max 28%)
I strted driving with 10% indicated charge, and it affected the values. Once the charge went to 0%, the SOC bounced in the 25-26% range. It would go higher if I had a long downhill.
 

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I see what you mean. :unsure: The math I had was backward.. with 7Ah on the bottom and 11.9Ah on the top.
Been mulling over why this fits but seems backward.

Because the math worked so nicely - its a shame to toss the idea out so quickly. It occurred to me that under no circumstances should a litium be 100% discharged - ever. But it is allowed to be 100% charged like laptops and even Tesla allows it as a manual setting. But this comes at a price.

So its possible the Ah capacity includes the top end and not the bottom as I originally mentioned.

Its not possible to disable regen so it becomes minimized at 100% gauge reading and dumped if it collects too much after max.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
BMW disables regen when the indicated SOC is above 96%, Chrysler can't be much different. I'll confirm next time I drive downhill with a full battery.
BCPM logs overcharge and deep discharge events:

Code:
hreshold Cals:
   Voltage Under Cell Voltage Emergency: 1800 mV
   Voltage Under Cell Voltage Alarm: 2640 mV
   Voltage Over Cell Voltage  Emergency: 4400 mV
   Voltage Over Cell Voltage Alarm: 4309 mV
   Time Under Cell Voltage  Emergency: 0.00 sec
   Time Under Cell Voltage Alarm: 0.00 sec
   Time Over Cell Voltage  Emergency: 0.00 sec
   Time Over Cell Voltage Alarm: 0.30 sec
Normally, the cell voltages are kept between 3.5 and 4.1V. My data sows one short overvoltage alarm, although it contradicts this:

Code:
Top 5 lowest cells:
   Cell Voltage_Min_EEPROM_1st_lowest: 3524 mV
   Cell Number 1st lowest: 79
   Cell Voltage_Min_EEPROM_2nd_lowest: 3528 mV
   Cell Number 2nd lowest: 27
   Cell Voltage_Min_EEPROM_3rd_lowest: 3530 mV
   Cell Number 3rd_lowest: 27
   Cell Voltage_Min_EEPROM_4th_lowest: 3534 mV
   Cell Number 4th lowest: 31
   Cell Voltage_Min_EEPROM_5th_lowest: 3534 mV
   Cell Number 5th_ lowest: 66
Top 5 highest cells:
   Cell Voltage_Max_EEPROM_1st_highest: 4092 mV
   Cell Number 1st_highest: 93
   Cell Voltage_Max_EEPROM_2nd_highest: 4092 mV
   Cell Number 2nd_highest: 87
   Cell Voltage_Max_EEPROM_3rd_highest: 4091 mV
   Cell Number 3rd_highest: 93
   Cell Voltage_Max_EEPROM_4th_highest: 4088 mV
   Cell Number 4th_highest: 81
   Cell Voltage_Max_EEPROM_5th_highest: 4088 mV
   Cell Number 5th_highest: 87
 

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That was from a chrysler engineers statement.

He claimed the it would be unsafe to disable regen completely when descending a hill and the Pachy is designed to waste excess through the coolant heater and by rotating the engine - which most believe is running the engine.

The requirement was 100% charge with a long decent.

Odd for sure i dont know why it doesn't just sync the field with the rotor and generate 0kW.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Tried driving downhill with a full battery.
The 1 on the Voltage graph is when I backed out of the garage, 2 when I switch from D to L. So the battery is charging a little bit, but my hill is too short to conclude anything.
42396
 

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These screenshots are nice.. this is a useful tool.

I may have to buy a (used) android device just for alfaOBD usage ;).

The cost of wiTech2 makes research prohibitive. Perhaps the owner that has the MIL occur from is morning decent can try this out, assuming they’re apart of the forum too.

So what exactly are you hoping to map out in the vehicle?

I would love to see what the BPCM is seeing on the inputs when charging and the fan comes on. We have previously determined that the “active cooling” function is not occuring ie: fan on for condenser functionality, and the AC Compressor is not running at the same time. based on @AZBean’s observations. The coolant temp remains slightly higher than ambient (but not hot enough to need a fan running 90% duty cycle, 15-30% duty cycle wouldnt be a complaint).

So many great mysteries..
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I'm digging into the data mostly out of curiosity. I don't expect a lot of returns, not while the car is under warranty anyway. I want to have a better understanding how the car works, monitor the dynamics of the battery SOH changes over time and record baseline data for future reference. I might pick something of interest if/when the refresh mode will pop up. The ability to read the hidden codes may also be handy.
Try to shake down a friend or a relative for an old phone or tablet. Shouldn't be to difficult to find one.
I emailed the author of AlfaOBD. He has no additional info on the abbreviations. If I'll need to go for a service I'll ask the tech why "HV Bat SOH" is around 90%. He might be able to get the answer through STAR.
 

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So I’ve been getting jealous of this app and had to asked about an iPhone version and apparently its in the works :D

Apparently early next year.

Its odd how it contains datapoints not present in wiTech? My BCPM doesnt contain the HV battery charge and discharge limits.. and I didnt see the IBS data in the BCM Either, (but I will have to check again to be sure.)
 
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