[Tiz]

We all know that there is no free lunch. What you save in gas you pay for in electricity when you run a plug in hybrid like the Pacifica Hybrid.
Over this past year when gas prices went down, I had several friends who parked their all electric vehicles which they used to commute to work because it cost them more in electricity to charge the vehicle than it did to commute with a traditional gas vehicle. Which brings me to my question. How many kilowatt hours of electricity would be used to charge the Pacifica's battery once it was discharged? Once this is determined and the price of electricity per KWH from your electric supplier is known we can then compare the savings, if any, as to charging the battery or running it on gas.

 

[hochingyung]

Where I live, I think it's roughly

Supplier: BGE
Location: Ellicott City, MD:
Cost: $0.11 per KWH
Battery size: 16 KWH

Per full charge = $0.11 KWH * 16 KWH = $1.76
dollar per mile: $1.76 / 33 miles = 5 cent per mile


It's about 3 time more efficient in EV mode compare to my 2011 MDX:
$2.75 per gallon / 18 mile per gallon = 15 cent per mile.


BGE also has EV rate schedule where they decrease the off peak hours rate and increase peak hours rate. We have solar panels roof so if we buy a second pure EV, it would then probably make sense to switch to EV rate schedule.

 

[csnyder]

One further point: charging is not 100% efficient—from some quick Googling, it appears to be in the 80-90% range. So, tack on another penny per mile. Still much cheaper than gas, and electricity prices tend to be much more stable than gasoline (in my region, at least).

If you haven't already, check with your electric utility for incentives and special rates. For EVs, my utility (Consumers Energy in Michigan) will do time-of-use metering that will allow us to charge at night for 10¢/kwh.

 

[Tiz]

Thanks.

I was not sure if you would use16KwH's to charge a 16 KwH battery or if it would be more due to some loss in the charging process. Maybe some E.E. out there can shed some light.

Also you can't use 18 miles per gallon in gas mode as a comparison. The Pacifica Hybrid is getting, according to actual driving experience from independent sources, of around 32 MPG highway in gas only mode after the battery has been depleted.

 

[JohnSnownw]

We pay $.08/kWh, and if we consider a 10% efficiency loss:

.08 x 17.6 = $1.41/33 miles

It costs us a little more than this, because we purchase windpower, in blocks, to offset our charging.

 

[generaltso]

So a fully charged battery is roughly equivalent to 1 gallon of gas in terms of mileage. If it costs around $1.76 to fully charge the battery, and gas is about $2.20 near me at the moment, the difference isn't nearly as much as I was hoping. I think charging at a free charging station would make the biggest difference.

 

[dmg2010]

A fully charged battery is about 33 miles, which is equivalent to about 1.33 to 1.5 gallons of gas. So $1.76 for the hybrid vs. 2.92 - 3.30 for the gas model. The cost savings on gas may not make up for the difference in depreciation though.

 

[JohnSnownw]

So a fully charged battery is roughly equivalent to 1 gallon of gas in terms of mileage. If it costs around $1.76 to fully charge the battery, and gas is about $2.20 near me at the moment, the difference isn't nearly as much as I was hoping. I think charging at a free charging station would make the biggest difference.

Well, compared to other vans it's quite a bit cheaper...if you take efficiency into consideration. For instance:

Sienna 18 mpg/City
Odyssey 19 mpg/City
Pacifica 18 mpg/City

Would cost around $3.50 in gas to go the same distance in non-hybrid vans.

 

[Tiz]

I did a little math using approximately a 20% loss during charging meaning it would take 19.2 KwH's to charge a 16 KwH battery. I have no idea if this accurate, just going by the previous post that suggested a 20% loss during charging.

I live in PA. My supplier is Penelec. My present rate per KwH is 6.51 cents per KwH. Using that calculation it would cost me about $1.25 for 33 miles of driving in electric mode vs. $2.69 in gas mode since our present gas price is $2.69 per gallon assuming the 20% loss in charging is accurate.

This is not my motivation for buying the Pacifica Hybrid. I am not some environmental "wacko". It is simply I can get a much higher trim level and much better equipped Pacifica buy buying the Pacifica Hybrid Platinum after I take advantage of the federal tax credit, state rebate, and a few other incentives I have discovered.

 

[jason1466]

When calculating your home KWH rate, be sure to take (Total Bill - Monthly Service Fee) / KWH used. Many folks mistakenly use there Supply Rate only, but for me I pay almost the same for supply as I do for transmission and taxes per KWH.
Pepco in MD with 3rd party supplier:
.076 supply
.13 Winter total rate
.16 Summer total rate

 

[Tiz]

Thanks for the Tip

 

[Gooser711]

With my Honda Fit EV, I calculated about a 93% efficiency using my home 240V charger (Level 2). I also get on average 5.5 miles per kWhr over the past 3 years. (Around 5.8 miles a kWhr from March - Nov and 4.2 in the deep winter) So it's pretty hard to make a case for gas being cheaper than electricity with that car, regardless of conditions.

The 80% efficiency you hear is most likely when using a standard 120 outlet as there will be less efficiency using a Level 1 charger.

A minivan is much bigger, heavier and less aerodynamic, so the average miles per kWhr are much much lower. Let's just say it gets 32 miles of electric with a 16 kWhr battery, that only 2 miles per kWhr. It'll be interesting to see what real world miles per kWhr people start getting.
Not sure how easy the will be to calculate in a PHEV, I'm only used to driving a BEV around.

 

[generaltso]

Well, compared to other vans it's quite a bit cheaper...if you take efficiency into consideration. For instance:

Sienna 18 mpg/City
Odyssey 19 mpg/City
Pacifica 18 mpg/City

Would cost around $3.50 in gas to go the same distance in non-hybrid vans.

Well, sure, the hybrid will get much better mileage than non-hybrids of the same size. But I'm trying to figure out how much cheaper it is to run the hybrid off the battery as opposed to running it off of gas. I haven't seen any official mpg ratings for the hybrid with a depleted battery, but I've seen some estimates as high as 32 mpg. If that's close to accurate, a fully charged battery would be roughly equivalent to one gallon of gas. I'm sure it's cheaper than a gallon of gas to charge at home, I'm just not sure how much cheaper. Looking at some of the rates for using non-free charging stations around town though, there's no way those make sense. Every one that I've looked at costs well over the cost of a gallon of gas to use. Might as well just leave the battery dead and use gas at that point. The saving grace for me, however, is that they've installed a free charging station at my place of employment. There's no question that free is significantly cheaper than a gallon of gas!

 

[snorth]

With my Honda Fit EV, I calculated about a 93% efficiency using my home 240V charger (Level 2). I also get on average 5.5 miles per kWhr over the past 3 years. (Around 5.8 miles a kWhr from March - Nov and 4.2 in the deep winter) So it's pretty hard to make a case for gas being cheaper than electricity with that car, regardless of conditions.

The 80% efficiency you hear is most likely when using a standard 120 outlet as there will be less efficiency using a Level 1 charger.

A minivan is much bigger, heavier and less aerodynamic, so the average miles per kWhr are much much lower. Let's just say it gets 32 miles of electric with a 16 kWhr battery, that only 2 miles per kWhr. It'll be interesting to see what real world miles per kWhr people start getting.
Not sure how easy the will be to calculate in a PHEV, I'm only used to driving a BEV around.

For the Chevy Volt, the numbers GM posted for charging efficiency are low-90s for Level 1, and mid-90s for Level 2. I can't recall the exact number for each, but both were in the 90s. I'd expect similar for the Pacifica - maybe better, since the charging time is less.

 

[mick0212]

I haven't seen any official mpg ratings for the hybrid with a depleted battery, but I've seen some estimates as high as 32 mpg.

Read somewhere, probably the Car and Driver review, estimates of 25/32 city/hwy.

 

[RecessionCone]

How much of the battery is actually used? My Volt reserves a significant portion of the battery as a buffer to prevent the battery from ever being fully charged or discharged. This lengthens the life of the battery considerably.

I would expect the Pacifica also doesn't charge or discharge the battery fully - so instead of basing the calculations on 16 kWh, it might be more accurate to look at 13 or so. But I don't know the details - does anyone here know?

 

[generaltso]

I just looked at my power bill and did the math. I pay $.16121 per KWh (including all fees). That means that it would cost me about $2.58 to charge the 16KWh battery with 100% efficiency. Could that really be right? Assuming a fully charged battery is close in mileage to a gallon of gas, it would be cheaper to just use gas at $2.25 a gallon. Somebody, please tell me that my math is wrong.

 

[csnyder]

Look into incentives and alternate rate structures from your power company. Our utility (Consumers Energy in Michigan) appears to offer a cheaper off-peak rate for EV charging, which can be used in conjunction with the scheduling features in the vehicle.

 

[generaltso]

Look into incentives and alternate rate structures from your power company. Our utility (Consumers Energy in Michigan) appears to offer a cheaper off-peak rate for EV charging, which can be used in conjunction with the scheduling features in the vehicle.

Yeah, I checked with my power company. They don't currently offer tiered rates for different times of day, so there is no off-peak.

 

[mtmgtz]

Yeah, I checked with my power company. They don't currently offer tiered rates for different times of day, so there is no off-peak.

My power company doesn't offer off-peak rates either.

I think it's also worth noting that Oil production in the US is likely going to be boosted substantially under Trump which means it's fairly unlikely that gas prices are going to skyrocket over the next 4 years.