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Education how Plug-In Pacifica saves BIG ?

16K views 41 replies 14 participants last post by  pdw 
#1 ·
I'm striving to own a first-year Pacifica gasoline powered plug-in car. I get that the internal combustion side of the powerplant in this minivan is always available to propell the vehicle whatever state of charge the PHEV battery is in. So how does one go about explaining a business plan for getting this more expensive vehicle, to show how it will achieve enough savings to cover that extra cost ?

It seems the sales departments are not yet equipped to be too helpful with questions, but to order an early model we still need to go to the dealership. I'd imagine it's the dealerships that need to get the ball rolling to create demand for this vehicle if they are as good on savings as some volks say they are.
 
#2 ·
There's really no way to figure that out since pricing has not been released as of yet.
 
#3 ·
But when has that ever stopped anyone on the Internet? ;-)

We already have a thread here with this speculation:
http://www.pacificaforums.com/forum...m/2690-2017-pacifica-hybrid-trim-pricing.html

The popular speculation right now is that they will only offer the hybrid in the Touring-L Plus and Limited trims (the top two tiers), and even then some other features normally found in those trims will be missing. People think the minimum price will be $40k, which if true, would be disappointing, IMO.
 
#4 ·
This speculation is based on absolutely nothing. No point in trying to figure out the break-even on buying the hybrid based on speculative numbers that have no basis in reality.
 
#7 ·
And then subtract $7,500 for the tax credit. :grin2:

How much is gas where you are? How many miles per day do you expect it to be driven, on average? You say high local miles, what does that mean? 100k? 200K? More?
 
#9 · (Edited)
The biggest hurdle right now is so few places to plug-in to keep up the savings. Between the wife and I we'd be able to use up the rebate offer on taxes. (I drive 50K)

In addition, I'm considering using the vehicle to sell power dispensers for it in my area which works together to sell each other. Stations for charging must be readily available to sell people on these vehicles .. and the plug-in vehicle is needed to make use of / sell those units :)

It's still only interesting if there's hope that it pay's off over time like we're used to from past car purchases. Not so smart at first look if it stays way cheaper to drive with the old style electrics on gas .. but so far it looks right for us to start making use of this innovation, all things considered. I'd rather have the plug-in option and not need it as much as I'd thought ... than to not have it and face a fuel price hike that often happens when we least expect it.
 
#12 ·
The biggest hurdle right now is so few places to plug-in to keep up the savings.
A free ChargePoint station was just installed at my place of employment. I work about 8 miles from home, so I could conceivably just plug it in at work every day and rarely have to pay for fuel. This makes it attractive enough that I'm considering replacing my Cherokee with a PHEV next summer. But could a family really have two Pacificas? :surprise:
 
#10 ·
I don't understand what you mean by "use up the rebate offer on taxes. (I drive 50k)". Assuming you purchase, not lease, the $7,500 federal tax credit is not included in the sale price; you have to file for that with your regular income tax filing. As long as you owe enough in taxes, you can qualify for the entire credit. It doesn't matter how much you drive the vehicle.

The $7500 tax credit (and some states have thousands more of their own credits) lowers the effective price of the hybrid to be competitive, if not cheaper, than the gas version, so there's no real long-term payoff to consider for that comparison.

For powering the vehicle, you can figure out the price point at which gasoline becomes less economical than electricity, but you have to know how much you pay per kWh to your utility. I saw a graphic somewhere that compared the national average for kWh and gasoline costs, and found that when gasoline rose to more than $2.00/gallon that electricity was the more economical option.
 
#16 ·
For many Americans... myself possibly... it's more than the potential "savings" day-to-day or year-over-year. For many, it's about "Doing the right thing" for whatever their reasons are: Saving the planet, reducing their carbon footprint, reducing our dependency on oil from other countries, reducing our dependency on fossil fuels in-general, less pollution, because it makes them FEEL good, etc. etc. etc.

I think the tax incentives and lure of cheaper cost over time (ignoring initial purchase price) might actually be paired with some OTHER internal moral advantage in choosing a plug-in Hybrid... or quite possibly even just plain ignorance and assumptions. I am willing to bet there are those that THINK they want a plug-in Hybrid because somewhere along the line, they've been led to believe that THAT is what they want/need... without any basis of fact behind it. :)

I do not own vehicles long-enough to see long-term payoffs like that. They have to be immediate for me, like the tax incentive.

Just my 2-cents. :D
 
#18 ·
A very good point! I've seen people on the GM Volt forums talk about "supporting the technology" as one of their reasons for purchasing. For me, this will indeed be a factor when choosing between the gasoline or hybrid Pacifica.

I tend to keep vehicles for 10+ years, though. The maintenance costs for the Volt are VERY low.
 
#21 ·
When I did my napkin math I figured out I would save about $10K USD every 100K miles. I was assuming .11KWh and 2.40/Gal over a traditional used T&C at 18-20MPG.
I drive cars to 150-200K routinely so buying a hybrid at 80MPG was worth a $20K hedge. Usually I spend 17-20K USD on a vehicle, so I was comfortable going up to 37K for the hybrid option. Add on the 7,500 tax incentive in the US and I was break even at 44,500. The hybrid was sold to me at 47K USD so I was doing well. Especially since this vehicle will come with a warranty and my used cars do not.

There is risk though, the gen 1 version could turn out to be a lemon, the tax incentive may go away. But I am at a point in my life where I can assume this risk. That and the car is cool.
 
#41 ·
Use US Gov't calculations, they have info you do not



Use this: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39270&id=39087
Adjust the electric and gas price to match what you want, and the mileage per year.

This site knows the city and hwy MPG in hybrid mode, you do not. This site also knows the usable capacity of the battery (14.x kwh) vs the total capacity.

They get about $3.5K savings over 75K miles.

This will let you tune things a bit more... https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=phev1Prompt&model=39270
 
#26 · (Edited)
That's an interesting thing. The appropriate calculation might get very detailed ... a little tricky to understand until taking a closer look.

e.g. My latest old-style car gets 900km per tank on 80 litres (120lbs of premium gasoline = 70 litres/105lbs plus 10 litre/15lb reserve at 25Celsius). One kilometer uses up three ounces at best milage ... that's combining urban and rural/highway and real careful driving (from warm garage each time).

The latest awakening was coming to a realization that by avoiding the warmup cycles (of older non-plug-in gas-motor vehicles including the old hybrids) is a huge advantage of the plug-in. My latest old car's 900kilometer range (a 2002 daimlerlCHRYSLER E-320) quickly goes down to 5-600km esp when a lot of cold starts and short distances have combined in one fill-up period (ie esp when my wife drives it). Then I ask ...where does the other 400km(approx 35litres) of range get lost to so easily ? 300-400km less is a lot of milage missing .. which the plug-in will be able to save .. X 10cents per km = $30-40 (out of the $90 CAN presently to fill it up when completely dry)

The kilowatt cost used at various times amount only to a fraction of what the gas costs ... in that early operation of powering the plug-in vehicle electrically for those first minutes of every drive. The current's heat radiating from the armature windings prewarms the adjacent engine so the gas power kicks in closer to peak efficiency by 10-20km down the road when battery gets lower. If that is a dozen times a day or only a few times, it starts to add up when the cost of a litre or two is saved each time over years of ownership ... while energy prices / taxes rise.

If the 'short trip' makes up the large part of some volk's 'miles driven', then it's also the main place where their hard-earned after tax dollars are used to fuel .. if not having the plug-in option. The Pacifica "Hybrid" avoids these real energy-expensive miles by drawing current from a grid ... and when using the van for sales on the side for the longer road trips, can fit expensive gas slips into a 'business tax deduction category' (helps support the extra outlay for the aquisition).

PDW/NOTL ON CA
 
#25 · (Edited)
snorth said:
I'm used to spending less than $20k on vehicles, and I know the dent our $33k Volt put in our budget, so I was going on a gut feeling there.
I KNOW the Plug in Pacifica will put a dent in our budget. How will it affect our overall wealth in the next 10 years though ?

Funny thing, we've stalled this type of vehicle purchase so long already (the intent to get into a plug-in) that friends started giving us their old cars. Our car expense has basically been zeroed for so long I began to realize our financial capability for the Pacifica Plug-in was already moving into place ... providing we aren't too far off with our estimate (our particular framing of the decisionmaking calculations)
 
#30 ·
No, it will not tow. There is a thread on hybrid Pacifica towing, but no real additional content.

You can grab the owners manual for the Hybrid online and read the towing section. It is not long, so I'll paste it all here.

TRAILER TOWING
Trailer towing is not permitted with this vehicle
 
#34 · (Edited)
The towing aspect is a need that could arise at any time in the life of any vehicle that is heavier. Nowadays the super light trailers that are available make it possible to tow a light utilituy trailer behind any vehicle. The drive in this vehicle saves a lot of fuel, and it's also misunderstood to some extent how it does this exactly; the electric side isn't always the most efficient of the two (running gas is often better) esp when highway power is needed after a while. Gas horsepower is often cheapest ... than letting the electric do too much ( when constantly replacing the empty battery space with gas power for example); that's only at times of course, definitely not in prolonged traffic or when keeping the V-6 off to avoid warmup cycles. Fell free to abuse me on this.

When you need lots of power it could sometimes be better to be able to switch off the electric at times like the Audi does .. would this also prevent the diodes from overheating too much when depleting at length or too far into the depleting current ? I don't know ...

The gas engine warms up from the heat of the synergy drive unit in there, obviously right ?.. so after 10 miles isn't the gas engine going to be warm and more efficient when it starts ? Isn't that part of the purpose of these new electrics, to get the best economy from a symbiotic operation of the two types of power ?
 
#35 ·
I don't think that the gas engine gets warmed up much from running on battery power if that's what you mean. I was watching the oil temp the other day and it was stuck at ambient temp the whole time running on battery. When it switched over to gas on the highway it just gradually moved up, suggesting the engine wasn't pre warmed. That's my guess. Ya, now that makes me think that having driven 4000 km and only having gone through 2 tanks of gas (not even really), there are several short cold starts in there that never got the engine up to be hot. I wonder if the engine is going to be a mess in a few years.
 
#39 ·
I was watching the oil temp the other day and it was stuck at ambient temp the whole time running on battery. When it switched over to gas on the highway it just gradually moved up, suggesting the engine wasn't pre warmed. That's my guess.
OK ... so i did some research on this oil temp idea. And , yes the oil temp gauge will represent the circulating oil, which it can't when the engine is off. So once the gas engine comes alive (as the EV battery empties) it begins to circulate very cold oil from the oilpan and only "gradually" warms as you have experienced.

My question was: When "it switched over to gas" would you notice the coolant temperature (cabin heat availablilty) to be warmer ? because if it does, which the Audi guys are noticing on the A-3 ... that would be one example how plug-in saves BIG. If the electric side pre-warms it means lower fuel-flow on every gas-start. When heater-core heat comes from the vents immediately upon switching, you know there's been the heat-transfer that makes the gas engine more efficient.
(I could see that paying-off BIG when using this van a lot every day as a business tool, and also utilizing plug-in stations at every stop possible.)
 
#37 ·
No, the gas engine will come on when the battery hits 0% and then run until its been restored to like 0.5%. It's interesting to watch how it works, and I don't have complaints. Our current average MPG is 47.1 mpg and climbing since we haven't had to use gas since the weekend.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Never even thought about driving in a manner that drains the battery right out; was under the impression some base battery-power in reserve is a good thing, for cooler electrics. Towards the end of a complete drain the volts would drop so amperage must go up, no?. Things heat up more that way, so was in understanding that if more fuel efficiency is achievable anyway if the internal combustion is activated sooner (esp when power is demanded) rather than feathering the pedal foerever to keep the gas-engine off longer. My opinion, when needing to accelerate may as well let the gas engine come on earlier if it's going to be warmed soon anyway ..
 
#42 · (Edited)
I'm having a hard time getting this estimate to work for my type of driving schedule (previous post's links). I think the savings are much bigger when each stop in the community is (parked) at a station for the duration of a stop. Our occasional highway drives or extended local trips should keep it using a fair bit of the gas power over time, making good use of the V6 power as well on occasion; the electric mode should really avoid a lot of warm up fuel normally consumed for shorter drives than with the old fashioned gas vehicles of the past. Keeping in mind up north here the starting temps were always much colder (a lot more warmup fuel wasted over the years), ... where I'm told the electric side of propulsion doesn't actually use more energy when still cold.

My vehicle just arrived at the dealer this week, 10 months after my first visit to the dealer.

We're in a tourist area, and there being so many stations everywhere, I'm anticipating plugging in easily 10 times daily for an hour or less per charge for the business 6am-10pm, ... of course a full charge (overnight) is guaranteed by morning.
 
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