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Discussion Starter #21
I don’t understand non reliability issues , go on Toyota Sienna forums and see what issues they have , trust me there are tons of them . I always say “ buy extended warranty if your gonna keep it past 3 yrs and have the piece of mind . With all features on today’s cars I would not purchase a new car without a extended warranty no matter what manufacture . Design language, features , architecture, space , all come with the dreaded space vs cost vs first to market issues . Spending 50 grand on a car one shouldn’t hesitate to fork out another couple grand for a little peace of mind . Happy motoring
 

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It would be nice if Chrysler could find a way to make a non plug-in hybrid Pacifica and retain the Stow n Go. Much smaller batteries could make this possible. It would give a nice boost to the mpg. I'm not convinced the minivan PHEV concept has an immediate future, unless ones driving habits require seating capacity AND mostly short drives. When the huge government bribes end (and they will), pairing a smaller EV with a gas van will probably serve the suburban family better.
 
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I don’t understand non reliability issues , go on Toyota Sienna forums and see what issues they have , trust me there are tons of them . I always say “ buy extended warranty if your gonna keep it past 3 yrs and have the piece of mind . With all features on today’s cars I would not purchase a new car without a extended warranty no matter what manufacture . Design language, features , architecture, space , all come with the dreaded space vs cost vs first to market issues . Spending 50 grand on a car one shouldn’t hesitate to fork out another couple grand for a little peace of mind . Happy motoring
I’ve been on the Sienna forums for 10 years and it’s tick tack stuff, comparatively. If you ever visited True Delta before it shut down, the Sienna had 12 problems per 100 responses vs in the 100s per 100 for non-Honda vans. Plenty of statistical and anecdotal proof out there. Extended warranties are almost always to the advantage of the insurer and for 50k, my car should work.

Another thing I like is the new Sienna still tows 3500lb.


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Discussion Starter #25
Okay so I’ll bite . I did a real world test of mpg with driving and no home charging . I plugged in when it was free at gym, Costco , movies , etc . I also drive it like it’s supposed to be driven and use everything at my disposal from all electronics . This is based on 85% city to 15 % highway . And I don’t hypermile like some people to squeeze more mobs out of it . I ride on oem factory 20’s with 245 50 20 tire and inflate it to 38 lbs . So driving this plug in with zero cost to me for charging has netted me 32mpg . I’ll post the pic down below . So with our van being way more aero than sienna and not towing , no awd this is my results . So do you really thing a non plug in 4 cyl is going to get better I’d say “absolutely not “ real world driving results . That 4 cyl will have to move that van with greater energies and will only lead to consuming more fuel, anything that motor runs it’s costing you $$$. Anytime that the ice is present only escalates the $$$ and drops your mpg overall .
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It’s a real shame Toyota didn’t include the option of a prime plug in powertrain from the upcoming Rav 4 Prime.
Would have been a great combo , I know FCA was watching the reveal and I bet a sigh of relief when no plug in option was announced
 

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Hey CANDAHYBRIDGUY, how did you get km distances and MPG ratings on the same screen? Don't they do that silly L/100km measurement anymore? :p (Just yankin' yer chain!)
 

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Discussion Starter #28
She’s a very special 1 of 1 hybrid built specifically for “ this guy “ . Hmmmm, makes you wonder whom and what I know ....
 

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Charging the battery is only from regen
No it's not, that's not how hybrids work and not why they get better gas mileage. Regen is negligible except if you're going up and down big hills.
Hybrids get better mileage all the time, not just going up/down hills. Why? Here are a few facts about internal combustion engines and hybrids:
  • Lowest brake-specific fuel consumption (BSFC), which is how much fuel you use to get a certain amount of energy, occurs at full throttle and fairly low RPM.
  • A non-hybrid vehicle cannot operate steady-state at that condition since the max power output of the engine has to be sized for acceleration. This means in cruising mode, a non-hybrid necessarily operates at partial throttle, which is inefficient.
  • A planetary-gear style hybrid like the Pachy and the Toyota hybrids can run the engine at any RPM and any throttle, independent of the speed and acceleration of the vehicle.
  • The hybrid does not need to size its ICE for acceleration, because it has the electric motors to assist in those cases.
  • Furthermore, the hybrid has a battery where it can dump power generated by the engine that isn't currently needed to move the vehicle. (This is the major source of battery charging in a hybrid. Regen is gravy.)
  • This means the hybrid powertrain is able to run the ICE at much more efficient operating point than a non-hybrid. If very little power is needed, it can turn the ICE off and run off the battery. When the battery is depleted, it turns the ICE on and runs it at high power, moving the vehicle and simultaneously recharging the battery. During highway operation, it runs the engine continuously but at a low rpm/full throttle condition.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Yes but remember that the vehicle only pushes power into the battery if the conditions are met . Just because it has 2 motors and a battery does not mean that it’s constantly putting power into battery . Nobody is taking into account conditions of road , weather , driving style, all of these factors determines what the end result is . So by simply saying that the powertrain , engine , battery is there does not mean that the end result will be same . Remember , nobody has decoded the trans , final drive ratio and programming . As the saying goes “ you can give a man a gun but it doesn’t mean he can hunt “ , just saying .
 

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Canada,

Are you saying the Sienna can’t make estimated MPG, even though the Highlander already is in real world/EPA situations? Even if the Sienna comes in a couple hundred pounds heavier, it looks more aerodynamic and lower to the ground to me. I would imagine it’ll hit the mark, no worries. In areas where gas and charging have similar cost, the Sienna will do well.


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It would be nice if Chrysler could find a way to make a non plug-in hybrid Pacifica and retain the Stow n Go. Much smaller batteries could make this possible. It would give a nice boost to the mpg. I'm not convinced the minivan PHEV concept has an immediate future, unless ones driving habits require seating capacity AND mostly short drives. When the huge government bribes end (and they will), pairing a smaller EV with a gas van will probably serve the suburban family better.
Alex Dykes commented that it’s probably more sustainable and beneficial to the environment to built a larger fleet of hybrid vehicles than a significantly smaller fleet of EVs or PHEVs, given a finite supply of batteries. That logic does make sense to me and it appears it’s the one that Toyota is following. That said, I absolutely love not using gas.
 

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Alex Dykes commented that it’s probably more sustainable and beneficial to the environment to built a larger fleet of hybrid vehicles than a significantly smaller fleet of EVs or PHEVs, given a finite supply of batteries. That logic does make sense to me and it appears it’s the one that Toyota is following. That said, I absolutely love not using gas.
Unless you actually can't source the required batteries, this is only a theoretical concern, though. People are talking about how there aren't enough batteries to make all the required EVs, but that's sort of the same argument that the world should have run out of oil decades ago. If people keep buying batteries, the market has a remarkable ability to figure out ways to make them.

So maybe the strategy makes sense for Toyota as a company since they want to sell millions of vehicles and don't currently have resources to build or acquire batteries to make them all BEVs/PHEVs, but at the same time they aren't learning how to make them and are losing the customers who want those vehicles. They better make sure they don't end up behind.
 

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Unless you actually can't source the required batteries, this is only a theoretical concern, though. People are talking about how there aren't enough batteries to make all the required EVs, but that's sort of the same argument that the world should have run out of oil decades ago. If people keep buying batteries, the market has a remarkable ability to figure out ways to make them.

So maybe the strategy makes sense for Toyota as a company since they want to sell millions of vehicles and don't currently have resources to build or acquire batteries to make them all BEVs/PHEVs, but at the same time they aren't learning how to make them and are losing the customers who want those vehicles. They better make sure they don't end up behind.
I think you’re right that it’s a volume argument, and Toyota is a volume manufacturer.

At the same time, the components of batteries are a natural resource, so using the same amount across more vehicles (assuming there is demand for more vehicles, which we know there is) is a more environmentally responsible use of those resources consumed in battery manufacturing.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Any ev manufacture will tell you that the only way to produce superior mileage to a vehicle is to put ( force ) electricity into a battery . Simply utilizing regen braking , trickle effect , is nothing more than putting solar panel on roof of your car and utilizing that as a hard point for charging the battery . I think it’s funny as Toyota opted for a 4 cyl in a van ( they say can accommodate up to 8, also put luggage , tow rating , and then sell you on notion of 33 mpg . Sorry but that drivetrain is going to work and work . Ask Tesla what happens to their cars when vast amounts of load , climate changes takes tons of range of their batteries. A Toyota Prius with a 4 cyl I get , but a bread box on wheels with a 4 cyl Is only going to be a sloth . Maybe you should ask yourself why Honda never dipped their foot into the water of this segment . It’s all about development costs , platforms and product sharing . I personally think Toyota had noting innovating for its new van and had a gun to its head to release something . There really is nothing new and innovative that they provided the market with . So is the gimmick really AWD with regen braking ? The question is will the future costs of putting 4 cyl motor, battery, motors offset cost of 6 cyl without added motors, etc . This my friends is why the automotive landscape is at a tipping point of ev, phev, ice , diesel, with powertrains .
 

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I like the Sienna hybrid. It offers some very nice features that the PacHy does not (no plug-in requirement for the best mileage, towing ability, AWD + hybrid option, potentially better reliability).

With that said, there are also some trade-offs that don't seem so great (that same inability to plug-in to run in EV-mode, non-removable 2nd row seats, big-ass console to the second row inhibiting walk-through).

Really, though, the main benefit of the Sienna hybrid as it relates to the PacHy is simply competition. The Sienna hybrid should give FCA some additional motivation to continue innovating the PacHy (and sooner rather than later). That, or discontinue it...:(
 

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Discussion Starter #38
The general public gave no idea the difference between a hybrid and plug in hybrid . But hey, if you think putting a 4 cyl in a minivan is a great idea so be it . Ask the auto manufactures why they don’t put a 4 cyl in their full size pick up trucks . The reality is that a 5000 lb vehicle, people mover in fact for seating for 7 or 8 , is going to be a true slug in reality . Put 7 people in your Pacifica Pacifica some luggage and tell me how great it is in reAlity . I think Honda and fca really laughed at this unveiling, ****, I would Honda if anybody would put a 4 cyl in a van . Competition I don’t think so , the inside already looks like a dated grand caravan .
 

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I like the Sienna hybrid. It offers some very nice features that the PacHy does not (no plug-in requirement for the best mileage, towing ability, AWD + hybrid option, potentially better reliability).
PacHy has the same mileage ratings with no plug-in requirement. It will use very little gas if plugging in and under favorable use scenarios.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I’m getting 35 mpg right now and I drive it like a ice Pacifica . I can’t phantom putting a 4 cyl in a block on wheels that can weigh 5000 lbs . Plug in or not , I wouldn’t buy a 4 cyl vehicle this size, weight if it had 2 or 3 motors . Toyota rav 4 hybrid is small and can only muster 35 mpg of real world driving . I’m not talking not using ac, electronics , people , not going over 55 on interstate . Add another 1000 plus pounds and you might get 30 at max . Sorry but anything that can’t plug in and control has so much variance , variables that affects mileage . It’s bad enough with a full on electric driving it 4 seasons , imagine this thing in cold, rain , snow , windy climate .
 
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