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PacHy Kills 12v Battery - Crashes Vehicle

3527 Views 40 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  ShiftyP81, 
drocketman
There are three Parts to this thread. Yes, the Pacifica Hybrid is hard on 12v batteries, and this has been a debated topic. I now have cradle-to-grave data from a battery installed new in our PacHy in Jan 2019 and how the vehicle managed it for 4 years. That will be the second part of this thread.

First; What happened. Later, why it happened and finally, how I can fix my car so it should not happen again.

What Happened, recently (short version):

After 8 days of inactivity in our driveway, I found our beloved 2018 Pacifica Hybrid Limited completely dead and unresponsive to the remote on 1/4/2023. I manually unlocked the driver door, no usual dash indications, opened the hood and found the 12v battery system at 2.9v. As expected, it would not start and there were no responses or indications. There had been no warnings or indications of any problems prior to this (more on this later). The car prevented my 6 A charger from charging the battery while it was connected to the car. So I jump started the car with a known good battery, removed the jump, and allowed the engine to charge the car battery for a while. I decided to take no chances and replace the 12v battery. I turned the car to the OFF state via the dash push button. The car was never moved out of P park. I left it to go purchase a new 12v battery. I returned a little over 2 hours later with a new battery to find the car in the street, having rolled ~80 feet on its own and knocked over my neighbors 700-800 lb brick mail box across the street. A police report was filed, pictures taken, and I jump started the car with the new battery. It started normally and I backed it up under its own power into my driveway where I replaced the 12v battery without incident. The car has operated normally with no warnings or indications of a problem before and since this incident. While I was gone, the car on its own and while OFF had unlocked the transmission park pawl when the 12v battery was failing. This allowed the car to roll 45 feet down a very mild slope in my driveway (3/16”/ft avg), then across the street to crash into my neighbor’s mail box. There was no occupant, and no key fob was present. My quick search has found at least 3 other incidents with this same model, where the 12v battery failed and the car, on its own, unlocked the transmission allowing it to roll away. Of the 4 incidents I am aware of, 3 resulted in collisions and property damage.

NHTSA 11173732, also Pacifica Forum post: 528153, member: 64329 @AdrianaHybrid18
Brand new hybrid - completely died

Pacifica Forum post: 597914, member: 76986 @Inanni08
Battery dies on Pacifica Hybrid - Rolls out of driveway...

Pacifica Forum post: 543399, member: 66469 @luked1234
Battery dies on Pacifica Hybrid - Rolls out of driveway...

Kids play around here! and were nearby when this happened, but it was so quiet and slow that they did not notice. It didn't even trigger the motion activated video security camera across the street because it was so slow and moving towarrd the camera. It’s only a matter of time before someone is seriously injured or killed by this design defect. I have talked to my dealer about this but he suggests that I contact ChryslerCares first before they look at my car.

And for those who will ask: Yes, my wife and I have changed our behavior because of this incident. Normally flat-landers like us only set the parking brake when on a noticeable incline. The Pacifica has an inclinometer built in and does this automatically for us. But it is apparently not enough. With this car however, we now consider ALL surfaces as significant inclines and ALWAYS set the parking brake when turning the car off. This gives us some comfort, but consider that the parking brake is also under software control like the park pawl. Makes one wish for the days when we had a cable operated mechanical "emergency" brake that could be teased and under direct control of the driver instead of just a parking brake that we can ASK THE COMPUTER to apply and that is just ON or OFF.

I will make the car and battery available for inspection at the Dealer’s or Chrysler’s request.

I filed a police report. I consulted with my insurance agent and a lawyer. I filed an NHTSA complaint. And I have sent a PM to ChryslerCares.

We love this car, especially my wife. We use the heck out of it and it had 65330 miles on it at the time of this accident. But she has maintained it in showroom condition inside and out with regular hand washing, hand waxing and detailing. Prior to this incident, the car did not have a scratch on it and had never been in an accident. So she was livid when this happened and feels strongly as I do that this is a symptom of a dangerous design defect in the Pacifica Hybrid. Under no circumstances should a vehicle unlock the transmission on its own. There should be safeguards that prevent the haywire electronic behavior that causes this. Additionally, there should be a specific warning to the user that the 12v battery needs replacement. There is none. Those two topics will be the subject of the 3rd part of this thread. We hold little hope that Chrysler will fix the damage to our bumper, but that does not stop us from feeling that they should.
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drocketman
snobrdrdan said:
What are you trying to accomplish with them btw?
Click to expand...
Two things:
1. I presented my case where I believe the PacHy is designed (not intentionally) to eat 12v batteries resulting in premature failures - premature in time of vehicle inactivity as well as battery life expectancy. This by itself is not a serious problem. But in combination with the following, it is. There is no routine service of the 12v battery that would discover its impending failure and no messages or warnings leading owners to suspect impending failure. There is no Fail-Safe. It can just fail after sitting any length of time without any warning. And finally I believe that there is sufficient evidence that battery failure in the PacHy can, on occasion, accompany if not cause internal damage to the vehicle as well as external damage to property and people. I believe that Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis should consider taking responsibility for the damage that is attributable to this design and operational defect as well as attempt to fix this defect. But all I am asking is that they fix our bumper damage that I believe was caused by this design defect.
2. I have not yet been able to get the Z11 recall performed and asked for help.
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ChryslerCares
drocketman said:
Two things:
1. I presented my case where I believe the PacHy is designed (not intentionally) to eat 12v batteries resulting in premature failures - premature in time of vehicle inactivity as well as battery life expectancy. This by itself is not a serious problem. But in combination with the following, it is. There is no routine service of the 12v battery that would discover its impending failure and no messages or warnings leading owners to suspect impending failure. There is no Fail-Safe. It can just fail after sitting any length of time without any warning. And finally I believe that there is sufficient evidence that battery failure in the PacHy can, on occasion, accompany if not cause internal damage to the vehicle as well as external damage to property and people. I believe that Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis should consider taking responsibility for the damage that is attributable to this design and operational defect as well as attempt to fix this defect. But all I am asking is that they fix our bumper damage that I believe was caused by this design defect.
2. I have not yet been able to get the Z11 recall performed and asked for help.
Click to expand...
Hello,

Thank you for grabbing our attention on this. This is very unfortunate news to hear. Should you wish to discuss this further with us, please send us a PM.

William
Chrysler Cares
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drocketman
So It looks like I need to separate my two problems into two different threads. I will be moving my Z11 recall difficulties to this existing thread:
www.pacificaforums.com

Z11 RECALL REPAIR THREAD & BATTERY REPLACEMENT POLL

Creating this thread to document the following: • the process from the time you call the dealer for service; • the outcome for each Z11 PacHY recall and whether your battery gets replaced or not. For those who had a battery replaced, can you also list the dealership who worked on your vehicle...
www.pacificaforums.com www.pacificaforums.com

And I will use this thread only for the roll-away incident.

Periodic Update:
1/04/2023 Rollaway incident, Police report, and 12v battery replaced,
1/25/2023 PM to ChryslerCares, NHTSA complaint filed, and started this thread.
1/31/23 ChryslerCares reply (Hannah) requesting mileage and VIN.
2/1/2023 My response with the requested information.
2/7/2023 ChryslerCares (Hannah) requesting personal contact and additional information.
2/9/2023 My response with all requested information and additional background.
2/14/2023 ChryslerCares response (Hannah) "Your concerns have been fully documented...Expect your case manager to be in contact shortly..."
2/15/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/16/2023 I returned call Chelsea not available so left message to call.
2/16/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/17-19/2023 I made multiple failed attempts to get Z11 Scheduled with AutoNation CDJR Katy Tx.
2/20/2023 Received call from Chelsea at ChryslerCares. When asked about fixing my bumper, she said cannot help with roll-away bumper fix. Dealer will charge diagnostic fee. Stated that I could rent a car and submit for reimbursement later for the Z11 fix.

So I guess that I will not be using Autonation CDJR to fix the roll-away incident damage to our bumper caused by the design defect in the Pacifica Hybrid.
As expected, very disappointed.
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J
drocketman said:
So It looks like I need to separate my two problems into two different threads. I will be moving my Z11 recall difficulties to this existing thread:
www.pacificaforums.com

Z11 RECALL REPAIR THREAD & BATTERY REPLACEMENT POLL

Creating this thread to document the following: • the process from the time you call the dealer for service; • the outcome for each Z11 PacHY recall and whether your battery gets replaced or not. For those who had a battery replaced, can you also list the dealership who worked on your vehicle...
www.pacificaforums.com www.pacificaforums.com

And I will use this thread only for the roll-away incident.

Periodic Update:
1/04/2023 Rollaway incident, Police report, and 12v battery replaced,
1/25/2023 PM to ChryslerCares, NHTSA complaint filed, and started this thread.
1/31/23 ChryslerCares reply (Hannah) requesting mileage and VIN.
2/1/2023 My response with the requested information.
2/7/2023 ChryslerCares (Hannah) requesting personal contact and additional information.
2/9/2023 My response with all requested information and additional background.
2/14/2023 ChryslerCares response (Hannah) "Your concerns have been fully documented...Expect your case manager to be in contact shortly..."
2/15/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/16/2023 I returned call Chelsea not available so left message to call.
2/16/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/17-19/2023 I made multiple failed attempts to get Z11 Scheduled with AutoNation CDJR Katy Tx.
2/20/2023 Received call from Chelsea at ChryslerCares. When asked about fixing my bumper, she said cannot help with roll-away bumper fix. Dealer will charge diagnostic fee. Stated that I could rent a car and submit for reimbursement later for the Z11 fix.

So I guess that I will not be using Autonation CDJR to fix the roll-away incident damage to our bumper caused by the design defect in the Pacifica Hybrid.
As expected, very disappointed.
Click to expand...
Yeah.. I'm starting to think it's corporate culture pushed down to the dealerships and not the dealerships acting crappy. Had my radio replaced and they didn't pair it to Chrysler/Mopar so now my account shows me as not the owner anymore.. they want more money to pair my radio. Took it in for control arms making noises.. told them they need to probably replace both causes 2018's have that issue. They replace the strut mount first, then the left control arm, and finally the right. They want to bill me for the right. "It's a separate issue".

On your Z11 whoever you get to do it. You make sure you have them walk you through EVERY STEP and the time it takes. If it doesn't roll to another day and they say they can do it in a few hours or less run.. don't walk..
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T
M0Par said:
Doesn't the 12v draw from and receive a recharge while the high voltage battery is being charged? Just top off the high voltage battery every few days. Don't allow it to go 8 days without use.
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This not really a reasonable ask in my opinion. It's what I'm doing after mine died in the 1st 6 months of ownership, but I don't think this is reasonable:
  1. Can't leave your minivan in the airport parking lot for a week without wheel blocks and a emergency Li++ starter while you're on vacation (This is what happened to me. Had to take a cab home and come back with a charger. After Chrysler replaced the battery, it can go a week, but not 2.
  2. Can't leave your minivan in the airport parking lot for 2 weeks while you're on vacation...
  3. Can't leave your minivan in the airport parking lot for 3 weeks while you're on vacation..
  4. Can't leave your minivan in the parking lot of the ski-in ski-out chalet you rented for a week because there's no charger there.
  5. Can't leave your minivan in the parking lot of the all inclusive you rented for a week...
  6. Can't leave your minivan at the end of your drive so the kids can park their cars when you're gone for a week or 2 because you have to park next to the charger and have the kids move the cars 2x/week.
As you can see, I'm working around it, and I'd probably have still bought it if I knew this in advance and it was documented in the owner's manual, but I think it is an issue. I tell folks about it if they're asking about buying a Pacifica PHEV.
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M0Par
Could it be an undiagnosed parasitic drain that's not a design flaw?
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drocketman
M0Par said:
Could it be an undiagnosed parasitic drain that's not a design flaw?
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Yes. I am doing drain recording sessions now off and on. So far the largest drain I have found that sticks around indefinitely is about 80 mA with the car off and the hatch open. That's about 1 watt. All other cases so far time out and go to something under 10 mA. Still investigating. Interestingly, the time out durations seem to be somewhat random.

On another subject, does anyone know if there is a reset procedure for the battery BMS device (located on the 12v battery negative terminal). Or is there a reset in the vehicle software. Or is it supposed to adjust to a new battery over time. I ask this because the DC-DC converter routinely places a higher voltage on the battery than it should and may contribute to overcharge damage. The highest I have recorded is 14.89 volts with a 1.20 A charge current applied. That was on Feb 16, a full 43 days after the new battery was installed. The new battery is being kept at 100% SOC and yet is still being charged significanty above trickle current.
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drocketman
Does anybody else see that the PacHy 12v battery application seems almost perfect for a LiFePo4 drop in? Of course I would have a voltage drop device for charging and the LiFePo4 would have its own BMS. It would be lighter and have at least twice the energy storage capacity. It would not have a damage risk at deep discharge like a lead acid AGM. So the current requirement to keep it at 100% SOC would be eliminated. Also, the BMS will auto shut down the battery if it is ever drawn down to 10v so the risk of haywire vehicle operation while unattended also goes away. And life expectancy would be at least as long as the HV battery. This would make it cheaper than installing multiple Lead Acid AGM batteries in the long run. It would solve all the problems of the current lead acid AGM battery application.
I wonder if all the "phantom" loads that the PacHy has were originally assumed by the designers to be taken care of by a LiFePo4, but at some point a decision was made to keep the price down for the vehicle. LiFePo4 bats are much cheaper and better now than they were before 2017.
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M0Par
Never heard of them until now. Looks like the only downside is they require climate control to take a charge when temps are below freezing.
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drocketman
M0Par said:
Never heard of them until now. Looks like the only downside is they require climate control to take a charge when temps are below freezing.
Click to expand...
Yep, it damages them to charge below 32 degrees. But there is no problem discharging them below freezing. There are many with built in heaters. The BMS can use a small amount of the battery's own energy to keep the temp just above freezing if necessary. Many of the packaged 12v units have this feature now. The LiFePo4 charge profile is very much like the AGM. A few years ago, one of the experts on this forum pointed out that the warning on the factory PacHy 12v H6 AGM battery ("Do Not Exceed 14.4v charge voltage") was very similar to the max voltage charge limit of a lithium battery. The LiFePo4 reaches 100% SOC at about 13.6-13.8v (right at the float voltage of a lead acid) and the upper limit is 14.6v.
I would build my battery, purchasing the cells and BMS. A 4 cell unit that super outperforms the H6 AGM can be produced for about $600 or less. The BMS interfaces by BT to a phone app and shows all parameters including SOC and individual cell voltage. It protects the battery from over temp, under temp, over voltage, overdischarge (undervoltage), short circuit, overload, and automatically balances the cells. In the PacHy application, it should last 6 to 10 years or more.
Here is a good place to start a learning process. It compares by testing the performance of several flooded and AGM lead acid batteries against an off the shelf LiFePo4 battery. Very thorough and enlightening. LiFePo4 stands for Lithium Iron Phosphate. The surprising result is that none of the lead acids delivered their stated capacity and the LiFePo4 exceeded its stated capacity.
12v battery compare LiFePo4 AGM Flooded

Here is a DIY 280 A-hr LiFePo4 battery demo. (that's over 2.5 times the capacity of the H6 AGM.
DIY 12-Volt 280Ah LiFePO4 Battery

Because of the much lower internal resistance and higher storage efficiency of the LiFePo4 battery, it will be a much lower load on the PacHy's DC-DC converter.
Do a google search of LiFePo4 batteries and search YouTube. They are the future and will replace most all other chemistries, just like LED replaced incandescent, flourescent and HID.
The only reason they are not prolific in cars yet is their cost, and that has come down dramatically in the last few years. It is still a big chunk of change in the initial cost of a new car even though it is cheaper in the life cycle cost of the car. The auto industry is so competitive that the designers find it easy to kick the cost down the road onto the owners since they are used to replacing batteries every 4 years anyway. The reliability, safety, performance and cost of the lithiums are improving by leaps and bounds while the lead acids are topped out and cannot improve much.
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stop-eject
drocketman said:
I presented my case where I believe the PacHy is designed (not intentionally) to eat 12v batteries resulting in premature failures - premature in time of vehicle inactivity as well as battery life expectancy.
Click to expand...
Quite the opposite- PacHy is designed to wake up and recharge the 12V battery every 3 weeks. Of course, this will not help if the battery is genuinely defective, as many of them are.
I have a LiFePo4 in my bike and it's been good so far. I can feel that its voltage is a bit higher because the starter is more enthusiastic. Because of the excellent cranking capabilities, most of them have lower storage capacities to keep the cost down. My bike battery is 60WH, while its lead equivalent is more like 150WH. Since PacHy needs capacity rather than cranking power, a good battery for it can be pricey.
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drocketman
stop-eject said:
Quite the opposite- PacHy is designed to wake up and recharge the 12V battery every 3 weeks. Of course, this will not help if the battery is genuinely defective, as many of them are.
I have a LiFePo4 in my bike and it's been good so far. I can feel that its voltage is a bit higher because the starter is more enthusiastic. Because of the excellent cranking capabilities, most of them have lower storage capacities to keep the cost down. My bike battery is 60WH, while its lead equivalent is more like 150WH. Since PacHy needs capacity rather than cranking power, a good battery for it can be pricey.
Click to expand...
You are right. What good is a planned charge in 3 weeks if the battery drops below 10v in 8 days. What I meant to convey above is nobody INTENDS to design a parachute to open AFTER you hit the ground, but that is what we have here. The intent was not to be defective, but that's what the PacHy is.
I disagree that the AGM batteries are defective. I would say the Pachy AGMs are mis-applied and crippled by the Pachy, not defective. Lead Acids are good batteries for specific applications and the AGM is a really good lead acid battery. They are just a poor fit in the PacHy and they are abused beyond their capabilities, so they don't last.
I believe what you are sensing in your bike as increased enthusiasm of the LiFePo4 is the increased voltage under load with the LiFePo4. The resting voltage is not much higher, but the discharge voltage is much higher because of lower internal resistance. The slope of the voltage during discharge is also flatter so higher voltage under load is delivered from 100% to 10% SOC. Not so for lead acid.
The AGM is not as tolerant of high current charging as flooded lead acid batteries. And all lead acid batteries are damaged by deep discharge that is not immediately recharged. This is how the PacHy 12v AGM is cumulatively damaged during charging in the PacHy. After a deep discharge of my PacHy's AGM, I have seen long duration charge current as high as 68 Amps. This is not good for an AGM. In addition, charging it above 14.4v is not good for it either. And finally discharging it mildly 10-20% and leaving it there for more than a couple of days is also not good for it. We just need to realize that a lead acid chemistry just will not last in a PacHy. This is proven by everyone who has a Pachy. Show me one PacHy battery (original or newly replaced) that lasted more than 4 years. Contrast that with my son's original AGM that lasted until late last year in his 2016 Challenger RT with V8 hemi. Lead acid batteries are fine for vehicles with milder off state energy demands. But Pacificas with Stop-Start and especially PacHys are just a torture chamber for lead acids.
Consider that both my laptop and my phone have battery life extension modes where they are charge limited at 80 and 85% SOC, respectively. The Lithiums love it there.They are stressed when above 90% and below 10%. I keep telling my wife not to discharge her phone to zero, but she doesn't listen and has had to replace the battery after 2 or 3 years. Keeping a lead acid at 85% for an extended time would kill it quickly. The actual usable capacity of a LiFePo4 of the same physical size is typically 4 or 5 times that of a lead acid even though its stated capacity is only twice what the stated capacity of the AGM is. There is a vast difference in the stated capacity and the actual usable capaciy of the two. And the LiFePo4 can last for 6000 to 10000 cycles and be left deeply discharged for weeks or months with no damage. It's a no-brainer.
You might be surprised that the 4 cell LiFePo4 application in the PacHy will need a voltage limiter/regulator to keep it below 14.6v during charge. This is because I have seen the PacHy charge voltage as high as 14.89v. I suggest watching those two videos I linked in post 30. The DIY battery demo uses 280 Ah cells and results in a battery that if discharged between 10 and 90% SOC would deliver around 2733 W-hrs routinely. Contrast that with what you dare draw out of an H6 AGM. And the 4 cell block (without case) will be about 6.9" deep x 8.2" tall x 11.5" wide and weigh about 46.7 lbs. The current markets that are driving the development of LiFePo4 12v batteries are RV users, solar storage banks, and fishermen who use trolling motors. But common usage in autos is not too far away. Current BMS boards for LiFePo4s are capable of 100 A or higher charge and discharge current.
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drocketman
Why does the Pachy have such a high charge voltage when the manufacturer of the battery clearly says DO NOT EXCEED 14.4V CHARGE VOLTAGE?
Most likely because the design engineers boxed themselves into a corner. Designing a great car with great features resulted in heavy OFF state energy drains and put them in a dilemma. This resulted in the PacHy's OFF state energy discharge dropping the SOC earlier than in other vehicles. The difference is not in the total energy used while the vehicle is off. Rather it is in what loads are applied and when. Meaning, when other vehicles are OFF, they may drop a few % SOC over days or weeks because they self discharge and have a few very small loads applied. However, the PacHy has more loads and may drop much more SOC over the same time span. The largest energy drain on ICE only vehicles may be the cranking energy. But this occurs just before the battery is charged back up with the engine running. Lead acid batteries don't mind this because of the short time between discharge and recharge. If you look at the PacHy, there is no starting load on the battery. The largest energy drain on the PacHy occurs when it shuts down and slowly powers down its systems, and also when a door or hatch is opened during periods of inactivity and it again goes thru a power down ritual. In addition, the PacHy may do other things in the interest of convenience, system maintenance and monitoring that other cars do not do. Agreed, these are relatively small energy loads, but the key is when they occur. The engineers at Chrysler likely knew this but it was probably too late in the design process to do anything about it other than raise the charge voltage (DC-DC output). This is a balancing act between a rock and a hard spot. They likely knew the drains, if left without quick recharging, would have a detrimental effect on the battery life so charging the battery back up ASAP was needed. The quickest and cheapest (but not best) solution to this was to raise the DC-DC output voltage but that also has a detrimental effect on AGM battery life. Hence the rock and hard spot. The OEM suppliers of the H6 batteries to Chrysler may have been involved with this decision process and may have seen it as a product liability issue. That may explain why they printed in red letters on the top of those H6 AGM batteries to not charge above 14.4 volts. Ya think?

Just for argument sake lets take two vehicles that both use AGM lead acid 12v batteries that are both located in the rear of the vehicle inside the cabin and away from engine bay heating and vibration: A 2016 Dodge Challenger R/T with hemi V8 and a 2018 PacHy Limited. Also lets just assume that the Off state energy loading of both of these is the same. This assumes the minimal energy drains of the Challenger when Off added to its large starting energy are equal to the energy drains of the Pachy while OFF. So you might assume after a couple of days sitting inactive, that the same amount of energy drained and the same amount of energy recharged should have the same effect on the battery. NOT SO. The key is when the drains occur. The bulk of the drain on the Challenger (starting load) occurs just prior to recharging, but the drain on the PacHy occurs right after shutdown or throughout the 2 days of inactivity. If they are immediately charged back up, lead acid batteries are not damaged by trivially small energy drains and only very slightly damaged by large energy cranking drains. High cranking current damage is different from damage caused by leaving a lead acid in a mildly discharged state for a day or more. Both are cumulative, and slowly reduce the performance of the battery over time. However in the PacHy, leaving the battery in even a slightly discharged state for more than a day is more damaging than the Challenger's cranking load, leading to early failure in the PacHy (3-4 years) and not in the Challenger(5-7 years). The selection of AGM batteries for both these cars was driven by several factors. First, the AGM is more tolerant to deep discharge and time in a discharged state than a flooded liquid lead acid battery. But it is not immune to it. Second, the batteries were to be located in the passenger compartment, so needed overboard venting of charge gasses. AGMs have this feature, flooded lead acids do not. Finally, it is interesting to note that the Challenger has an H7 AGM and the PacHy has an H6. The larger battery in the Challenger was needed for cranking amps capacity, not energy storage capacity. In hindsight, it may have been better to equip the PacHy with the H7 for its increased energy capacity, but this is only speculation. The benefits may have only been minimal because the root cause (PacHy's large OFF state energy drain and its detrimental effects on lead acid batteries) would still be there. So the engineers at Chrysler may have decided that the added weight to an already overweight vehicle was not worth the gain. So, since I cannot redesign the OFF state loads that are designed into the PacHy, the solution as I see it is to eliminate the root cause by reducing the cumulative battery damage. Again I arrive at the LiFePo4 solution. The benefits far outweigh the down side.

Benefits:
Two or three times the life.
At least twice the usable capacity.
No degradation caused by inactivity at less than 100% SOC.
Lower energy demand from the onboard DC-DC converter
The same or lower weight.
Auto disconnect if drained below 10v so no gremlins if it dies.
Convenient and complete battery health information.
Piece of mind.

Down Side:
About 2 to 4 times the initial cost (but total life cycle cost are the same or lower)
Voltage limiter required on + lead
It is something new and may involve unforeseen problems (that's what engineers do).
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drocketman
stop-eject said:
Quite the opposite- PacHy is designed to wake up and recharge the 12V battery every 3 weeks. Of course, this will not help if the battery is genuinely defective, as many of them are.
I have a LiFePo4 in my bike and it's been good so far. I can feel that its voltage is a bit higher because the starter is more enthusiastic. Because of the excellent cranking capabilities, most of them have lower storage capacities to keep the cost down. My bike battery is 60WH, while its lead equivalent is more like 150WH. Since PacHy needs capacity rather than cranking power, a good battery for it can be pricey.
Click to expand...
BTW,
The lower LiFePo4 capacity of the replacement in your motorcycle is not only to keep costs down. It is because the difference between usable and total (stated) capacity. It seems like the two should be the same, but they're not. A battery is supposed to deliver its rated capacity in watt-hrs by the time it discharges down to 12.2 volt but lead acids rarely can produce their capacity by the time they reach this voltage (yes, most lead acid battery capacity statements are lies). That is why you usually do not see the capacity (W-hr) on auto batteries (product liability). You see cold cranking amps and amp hours and some silly thing like reserve capacity (Amp hours is not equatable directly to energy capacity). If you review the battery comparison video I linked above it will make this clear. In order for a lead acid to truly deliver its capacity it has to typically go down to 11.8 volts. Not so for a LiFePo4 battery. They will usually deliver more than their rated capacity under the normal conditions that they and lead acids are used. Also lead acids have a higher internal resistance, so they are taxed more to deliver cranking amps under all conditions than LiFePo4s. The bottom line is that you have to have a higher capacity lead acid to meet real world needs of your motorcycle in all the conditions it needs to perform in. I have been looking at 280 A-hr cells for a hypothetical PacHy battery. But that is probably a tremendous overkill. The A-hr capacity stated on the label of the typical H6 AGM replacement for the PacHy is only 70 A-hr. Because the usable capacity is greater in a LiFePo4 of the same rated capacity, one could probably get away with a 60 or 50 A-hr LiFePo4 in the PacHy.

FWIW, you can purchase a 100 A-hr LiFePo4 already assembled commercially available. And it typically weighs only 25 lbs or less and will have almost twice the USABLE energy capacity of the typical H6 AGMs in PacHys.
Do a search.
The trick will be to limit the voltage on the PacHy 12v battery positive lead to 14.4v (14.6 is max). Another trick may be to game the existing PacHy BMS output. So understanding what the PacHy BMS does for the PacHy operating system is needed. Questions like what influence (if any) does the BMS have on the voltage delivered by the DC-DC converter? And if it does have influence, how does it do it. For example, it may be possible to game the BMS control signal to limit the DC-DC output voltage to 14.4v without additional circuitry. For a drop in conversion to work, all a "managed" LiFePo4 needs from the PacHy is a voltage source between 13.8 and 14.4 volts capable of charge currents. Its built in BMS will do the rest and can charge the LiFePo4 cells at and above any current that I have ever seen delivered from the PacHy to the H6 AGM. Even if the 14.4v limit is exceeded, the LiFePo4 BMS will prevent damage to the battery, but my design requirement would be to have a system that operates as intended to limit the voltage delivered to the BMS for charging. It would be a perfect battery for the PacHy. Lighter, smaller, safer, smarter, more capable and cheaper in the long run.
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drocketman said:
So It looks like I need to separate my two problems into two different threads. I will be moving my Z11 recall difficulties to this existing thread:
www.pacificaforums.com

Z11 RECALL REPAIR THREAD & BATTERY REPLACEMENT POLL

Creating this thread to document the following: • the process from the time you call the dealer for service; • the outcome for each Z11 PacHY recall and whether your battery gets replaced or not. For those who had a battery replaced, can you also list the dealership who worked on your vehicle...
www.pacificaforums.com www.pacificaforums.com

And I will use this thread only for the roll-away incident.

Periodic Update:
1/04/2023 Rollaway incident, Police report, and 12v battery replaced,
1/25/2023 PM to ChryslerCares, NHTSA complaint filed, and started this thread.
1/31/23 ChryslerCares reply (Hannah) requesting mileage and VIN.
2/1/2023 My response with the requested information.
2/7/2023 ChryslerCares (Hannah) requesting personal contact and additional information.
2/9/2023 My response with all requested information and additional background.
2/14/2023 ChryslerCares response (Hannah) "Your concerns have been fully documented...Expect your case manager to be in contact shortly..."
2/15/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/16/2023 I returned call Chelsea not available so left message to call.
2/16/2023 Received voice mail from Chelsea at ChryslerCares reminding me to schedule Z11
2/17-19/2023 I made multiple failed attempts to get Z11 Scheduled with AutoNation CDJR Katy Tx.
2/20/2023 Received call from Chelsea at ChryslerCares. When asked about fixing my bumper, she said cannot help with roll-away bumper fix. Dealer will charge diagnostic fee. Stated that I could rent a car and submit for reimbursement later for the Z11 fix.

So I guess that I will not be using Autonation CDJR to fix the roll-away incident damage to our bumper caused by the design defect in the Pacifica Hybrid.
As expected, very disappointed.
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Is this lack of ability to keep car unused for a week or two at a time everyone else's experience? We go away multiple times a year including sometimes leaving it at the airport. that's crazy if car can't sit that short of a time.
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ShiftyP81 said:
Is this lack of ability to keep car unused for a week or two at a time everyone else's experience? We go away multiple times a year including sometimes leaving it at the airport. that's crazy if car can't sit that short of a time.
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My two battery failures were after 8 days sitting, HV at 0% and 100%, with the battery age at 3 years and 4 years, respectively. A new-ish battery doesn't seem to die that quickly. So my advice is to get a new battery every 2 years. I am, however solving FCA's problem on my own since FCA considers it a non-problem.
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drocketman said:
My two battery failures were after 8 days sitting, HV at 0% and 100%, with the battery age at 3 years and 4 years, respectively. A new-ish battery doesn't seem to die that quickly. So my advice is to get a new battery every 2 years. I am, however solving FCA's problem on my own since FCA considers it a non-problem.
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Do you mean new 12V or the main one? It's too bad there's not some trickle charge option we could use. Like leaving something in the trunk for those long times between driving.
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New LiFePo4 12v that will have twice the capacity, about 2/3 the weight, and that will outlast the car and let you know if it is in danger of dying. The PacHy was perfect for this battery, only ahead of its time because the LiFePo4 cost too much when the PacHy was designed. Now the tech is affordable and much more mature.
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drocketman said:
New LiFePo4 12v that will have twice the capacity, about 2/3 the weight, and that will outlast the car and let you know if it is in danger of dying. The PacHy was perfect for this battery, only ahead of its time because the LiFePo4 cost too much when the PacHy was designed. Now the tech is affordable and much more mature.
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I was talking to a friend who's a Tesla owner and he asked why we can't just leave it plugged while away and let an app/software handle not charging it 24x7 but also not letting it drain down? Is that not possible?
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ShiftyP81 said:
I was talking to a friend who's a Tesla owner and he asked why we can't just leave it plugged while away and let an app/software handle not charging it 24x7 but also not letting it drain down? Is that not possible?
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Mixed answer to this.
First, if plugged in, once charging completes, the HV system is powered down and the DC-DC converter which charges the 12v battery powers down as well (so no charging of either battery).
According to some, there is supposed to be a timer function when the vehicle is dormant that will boot the HV battery for some amount of time every 3 weeks or so if the PacHy is left unattended. I have never seen this timer function in action. Whenever the HV system is active, the DC-DC converter is running which provides the 12 system ~14v, so charges the 12v battery. My 3+ year old battery failed twice before 8 days passed, once with the HV at 100% and once with the HV battery at 0%. Of course, if the HV is at 0%, it has no headspace to run the converter and should be locked out, so no 12v charging anyway. Even if the HV is at 100% and you have a waning 3+ year old 12v battery, 3 weeks may be too long to wait for a boost as in my case. For safety reasons, the ICE will never be started while the vehicle is dormant, so the 12v battery, if under stress, may likely die.
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