[jes1221]

I need suggestions. I would have pre-ordered a Pacifica Hybrid but I felt like that took away any leverage I may have had for getting a better value on my trade-in.

I've never traded in before and the one time it was a possibility I sold private party on Craigslist after buying my new (used) car and was able to pay off the current loan and pocket $4k which was awesome. That was a Nissan Pathfinder I was selling which apparently I had gotten a pretty good deal on to begin with, had put around 8k miles per year on and had a good residual value. Now I have a 2010 Town & Country with basically average miles (79000), got a horrible deal on it at CarMax and for KBB trade-in values it's about $4000 underwater with 2 years left on the loan.. and that's with 2.79% interest!

What is the best strategy? Is there any possibility a dealer would give me a break on the trade-in when buying a new Pacifica Hybrid off the lot once their allotments are in? Or are the margins so low on them that they're going to low ball me on my trade and let me walk away no matter what? I would much rather trade-in than try to sell private party this time. I just don't have time... but I suppose I'd have to make time if it came down to it or rolling an extra $4000 into my already $50000 Pacifica Hybrid loan. Plus if I sold private party I think I'd have to do it before I bought the new Pacifica because I'm not sure if I could qualify for a $50k loan with a $10k loan for the T&C still hanging out there. And that also means delaying the purchase of the Pacifica until I found a buyer with an acceptable deal on the T&C... and I don't want to wait! But I guess that's what the dealers are betting on when they low ball you on your trade-in.

So any recommendations for me? Just suck it up and eat the $4000? I'm sure having some patience is going to be in there no matter which way I go which is hard for me

 

[csnyder]

Basically, you're hoping to ask the dealer to give you $4k more than KBB says it's worth. Regardless of what vehicle you're purchasing (but especially with a sought-after vehicle), that puts you in a terrible negotiating position. If they give you $4k additional in your trade-in, you know they're going to need to make that up somehow.

I hate to say it, but based on what you're saying, I don't think it would be a wise decision to make this purchase. It simply doesn't sound like you're in a strong enough financial position.

 

[jes1221]

Oh no I didn't expect to be able to negotiate the whole $4000. Just get me somewhere closer to what I could get private party. I just wasn't sure if even that was possible with this particular vehicle.

 

[ScorpyMjolnir]

If you can get by without the T&C for a short while, put it up and start selling it now. Not tomorrow, now. You may need to get by on 1 less car in your family, or borrow one from someone. You'll likely have to put some cash with it to pay off the note. It's unfortunate, but true. You're standing at the bottom of a 20 foot hole with a shovel in your hand asking how to get out. It's too late, you're already in the hole. It sucks, I've been there. More than once.

If you don't want to hear me talk about staying out of the 20 foot hole, stop reading now. Ok, fair warning.

The next bit of advice is this, either have a **** ton to put down, or don't take out 6 year loans. That's too long, you don't pay them down fast enough to stay ahead of the curve. You will always be upside down.

If you have nothing down, and have to take out a nearly 100% (or more...) 6 or 7 year loan to make the payment small enough. Don't do it. Buy a cheaper vehicle. Buy a gas Pacifica. Do yourself that favor. If you think you are upside down now, wait until you take out a 100% loan on a vehicle with a $7,500 credit on it.

If you do take out a $50k 6 year loan on a $48k car (this is another 20 foot hole), you better throw every bit of extra cash you have at that thing. The $7,500 credit next year needs to go towards your loan. That's if you qualify, don't count on it without some research, it takes a significat amount of income to pay $7,500 in taxes that you aren't already getting back in a return without the credit. If you get all but $1k of your income tax back, then you only stand to gain another $1k, not $7,500. Don't count on the goverment to throw dirt in your hole, you may be dissapointed unless you know for sure.

This is just my two coppers my friend, chase your own happiness. If that's a van, that's cool with me. Good luck.

 

[jes1221]

I appreciate your input ScorpyMjolnir and will take your advice to heart.

Can't help but feel a little bit patronized... I do understand how loans work and how I ended up in this predicament with the T&C. I wouldn't say it was because I was ignorant of what could happen $$ wise but that my intention with the vehicle was to drive it til it died. And then I changed my mind (13mpg and 2000-3000 mile oil changes and being a bleeding heart tree hugger will do that). So lesson learned on that account.

We paid over $14k in federal taxes so I am feeling pretty good about the tax credit situation... We can take care of the underwater loan I was just trying to minimize the sting as much as possible.

If I want to go electric this is really the only option for us. Family of 5 with 200lbs worth of dog.

 

[flyer351]

Now I have a 2010 Town & Country with basically average miles (79000),

How well does the van run? Are there any imminent failures on the horizon? I would encourage you to keep the existing van in the driveway as long as possible. We were upside down on several vehicles and our solution was to keep them well past when they were paid off. If you can keep saving the existing payment after the loan is gone you'll eventually have enough cash to purchase the next vehicle outright. Our van is 12 years old with 200K miles and we finally have enough money to buy a Pacifica with cash.

However, once you have the cash to buy a new car outright you'll find numerous reasons to keep the old vehicle and skip buying a new car. I love the idea of a hybrid minivan but it's going to suck having to part with about $45K in cash.

** Update ** Jes, I just saw your last post. You guys are definitely in a higher tax bracket than we are. You may be able to flip the situation quicker than we did. Would it be possible to pay off the current van and save up for a new one within a couple years?

 

[Shygar]

My guess unless the demand goes down for the hybrid in the near future, you may not be in a good position to negotiate. Could the dealer go ahead and tell you today what your car would trade in for? I'd just try to sell it now and either borrow, rent or use another car and try to get a little more out of it. If you were going for a non-hybrid, maybe that would help.

 

[jes1221]

How well does the van run? Are there any imminent failures on the horizon? I would encourage you to keep the existing van in the driveway as long as possible. We were upside down on several vehicles and our solution was to keep them well past when they were paid off. If you can keep saving the existing payment after the loan is gone you'll eventually have enough cash to purchase the next vehicle outright. Our van is 12 years old with 200K miles and we finally have enough money to buy a Pacifica with cash.

However, once you have the cash to buy a new car outright you'll find numerous reasons to keep the old vehicle and skip buying a new car. I love the idea of a hybrid minivan but it's going to suck having to part with about $45K in cash.

** Update ** Jes, I just saw your last post. You guys are definitely in a higher tax bracket than we are. You may be able to flip the situation quicker than we did. Would it be possible to pay off the current van and save up for a new one within a couple years?

Right at the moment the van is good. However I have a constant feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Last year I think I spent about $3000 on repairs.

 

[Gohawks1224]

and here I thought I would get to see a car underwater... moving on

Good luck with your trade in. I have never been happy with the trade in values as some dealers ignore market value for local area, and instead, insist on using auction numbers (for local area). What they do not tell you is that, those auction numbers are the starting big or reserve number. The price can go up from there.

 

[BrettP]

If you want good advice as opposed to my advice search the Internet for "underwater trade in" but add Dave Ramsey to the search. There will be a few interesting YouTube videos in the results.

$3000 in repairs sounds like a lot to spend until you compare it to new car payments which will be 3-4 times as much. Unless you are in a position to easily put a lot of money down on the Pacifica it will be grotesquely underwater as soon as you drive it off the lot.

 

[ScorpyMjolnir]

I appreciate your input ScorpyMjolnir and will take your advice to heart.

Can't help but feel a little bit patronized... I do understand how loans work and how I ended up in this predicament with the T&C. I wouldn't say it was because I was ignorant of what could happen $$ wise but that my intention with the vehicle was to drive it til it died. And then I changed my mind (13mpg and 2000-3000 mile oil changes and being a bleeding heart tree hugger will do that). So lesson learned on that account.

We paid over $14k in federal taxes so I am feeling pretty good about the tax credit situation... We can take care of the underwater loan I was just trying to minimize the sting as much as possible.

If I want to go electric this is really the only option for us. Family of 5 with 200lbs worth of dog.

$14k in income tax with 3 kids after your refund? Jesus, how much do you make? (Don't answer that :wink2. How is $4k even a blip on your radar? Unless $14k includes Medicare, Social security, etc. You can't get those back.

Like I said brother, chase your happiness. You want to cut the sting? Sell your van privately. That's your only option. There's not enough margin in yours to ask for more on the trade.

No patronizing or offense intended in my post. Careful asking for financial advice on the internet, you just might get it. Good luck!

 

[jes1221]

If you want good advice as opposed to my advice search the Internet for "underwater trade in" but add Dave Ramsey to the search. There will be a few interesting YouTube videos in the results.

$3000 in repairs sounds like a lot to spend until you compare it to new car payments which will be 3-4 times as much. Unless you are in a position to easily put a lot of money down on the Pacifica it will be grotesquely underwater as soon as you drive it off the lot.

I will check that out.

$3000 in repairs is a lot when you consider it is a vehicle I no longer want to drive. I am willing to pay more (and suck it up on the negative equity) to have a vehicle that runs better and fits my environmental ideals better.

I was actually advised long ago that it's better to put as little down as possible on a vehicle because if something were to happen to it and it was a total loss Gap insurance might cover the loan but you're never getting your down payment back. Which maybe is fine if you've had it for a few years but if it's only been a few months... And, again, if everything else is equal the difference in paying it as a down payment or paying off the negative equity if you sell it before the term is over, is only in the interest paid which, for example on my T&C @ 2.79% is a few hundred dollars on that $4000 that I'm underwater.

 

[marcbsilverman]

Lease the Pacifica PHEV. You get the 7500 off the price of the car and your payments will be under 400/month...and less than 350/month with 3000 down.

 

[jes1221]

$14k in income tax with 3 kids after your refund? Jesus, how much do you make? (Don't answer that :wink2. How is $4k even a blip on your radar? Unless $14k includes Medicare, Social security, etc. You can't get those back.

Like I said brother, chase your happiness. You want to cut the sting? Sell your van privately. That's your only option. There's not enough margin in yours to ask for more on the trade.

No patronizing or offense intended in my post. Careful asking for financial advice on the internet, you just might get it. Good luck!

Mo' money mo' problems. And we live in California, so cost of living is high, I guess. $4000 is definitely a blip!

And I guess I didn't really realize I was asking for financial advice. I mean I was asking about whether there was leeway in the trade-in price I could get when buying the Pacifica or how I might go about maximizing that. But apparently that opened me up to scrutiny on whether I actually need this van or not. I spose I did get some answers that made sense though so I can't complain. I mean I did complain but... anyway. I know where I went wrong in my initial question so I will remember next time lol I appreciate it nonetheless!

 

[jes1221]

Lease the Pacifica PHEV. You get the 7500 off the price of the car and your payments will be under 400/month...and less than 350/month with 3000 down.

I hadn't seen that they were going to be leasing them. It's not on their website. While I want to say I want to keep this car for a long time that's how I felt about my town & country and it didn't work out. But if the Pacifica really is the "the one," leasing it seems to just delay the inevitable and spread the financing out over a longer period (if I were to buy it after the initial term).

 

[BrettP]

?.. to have a vehicle that runs better and fits my environmental ideals better.

Sorry, jes1221, I too thought you had a personal finances question. I sincerely salute the "environmental ideals" which, sadly, are sometimes still at the opposite end of the spectrum from maximizing personal finances but I feel things are getting better and I hope to someday be a greener vehicle driver as long as my electrical company isn't burning fossil fuels (or puppies), etc..

 

[ScorpyMjolnir]

Mo' money mo' problems. And we live in California, so cost of living is high, I guess. $4000 is definitely a blip!

And I guess I didn't really realize I was asking for financial advice. I mean I was asking about whether there was leeway in the trade-in price I could get when buying the Pacifica or how I might go about maximizing that. But apparently that opened me up to scrutiny on whether I actually need this van or not. I spose I did get some answers that made sense though so I can't complain. I mean I did complain but... anyway. I know where I went wrong in my initial question so I will remember next time lol I appreciate it nonetheless!

No worries man, good luck. Depending on where in CA, you may be able to play dealers against each other for a better trade. I lived in LA for a number of years, and dealer density and plentiful vehicles can work in your favor. A few months after the initial surge could help perhaps?

Depending on how crunchy your area likes their granola (hippy density rating), you may be competing with a lot of folks for a very limited number of available vans. Would you be willing to travel to a less populous area? A couple hours out of the city, for instance? You may find a dealer more willing to haggle. Bringing a vehicle into CA from out of state is a pain in the ass, but for a couple grand, it may be worth it.

 

[Gohawks1224]

If you want good advice as opposed to my advice search the Internet for "underwater trade in" but add Dave Ramsey to the search. There will be a few interesting YouTube videos in the results.

$3000 in repairs sounds like a lot to spend until you compare it to new car payments which will be 3-4 times as much. Unless you are in a position to easily put a lot of money down on the Pacifica it will be grotesquely underwater as soon as you drive it off the lot.

yeah about 20,000 in three years.

 

[jes1221]

Sorry, jes1221, I too thought you had a personal finances question. I sincerely salute the "environmental ideals" which, sadly, are sometimes still at the opposite end of the spectrum from maximizing personal finances but I feel things are getting better and I hope to someday be a greener vehicle driver as long as my electrical company isn't burning fossil fuels (or puppies), etc..

Yeah that is definitely something you have to consider. Mine burns gas which is marginally better. My electric company has a tool to find out if you'd save money by having an electric vehicle and they say I'd save $70/mo. And that I'd pay $30 more a month if I went solar, go figure surprising they're the better option in both instances.

But we are still looking at going solar for our home, too, to make it really worth while. We are just trying to decide if this is our forever home or not before we bite the bullet on solar.

 

[ljnelson109]

First off, BTDT. I was upside down in 2009 when I bought this van. I sold our Odyssey outright (and had to pay some cash on top of a very favorable private party deal). Private party sales are a pain but honestly your best bet. One thing I have done is to go talk to the dealer, find out what they can give you, factor in a convenience (and tax) buffer and then list for private party sale at just enough more to make it worth the hassle. If you list it aggressive, it will either sell quick or not.

There is one more, though. Carmax and some of the other "we buy cars" businesses will surprise you how much they offer on a buy only transaction. I always get the Carmax buy offer on my way to the dealer for a trade. I had one dealer say they were so far from being able to offer me that price that they hauled the car to Carmax for me to make that deal work (I was approaching the mileage limit on the Carmax guaranteed offer price). If/when I make this transition, I will go to Carmax and get their offer and use it in my final decision. In Maryland, though, it is my understanding that you can only get the sales tax relief if you buy and trade in the same transaction. That makes the Carmax deal 6% less lucrative than a trade. I do want to verify that our current governor did not fix this flaw in the law.

One other thing, though. Are you really only getting 13 MPG? If so, something is terribly wrong with your van. I think that my worse tank ever was around 17. I normally see 18-19 with mixed driving.