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To each their own, in my case it was not a financial decision. The sheer pleasure of driving all these miles without gas is priceless. And going down a hill and slowing down by charging the battery brings me a smile every time. Yes, hybrid and stop/start are nice, but 35 mile plug-in hybrid and a 13kWh battery is great. That was actually my first requirement, a plug-in hybrid.
 

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I think if you do the math it’s quite easy . I’ve traveled 30000s , 90% of that has been electric , and have paid roughly 0 for next to nothing for it . I’ve installed a juice box pro 40 ( nema ) outlet in my house and put oem 20 ‘s ( black S rims ) on it . I’ve noticed less than a 1% loss of efficiency due to that . Adding bigger tires and rims ( esp non oem adds more rotating mass to the vehicle at all four corners ). If your truly looking for savings/efficiency then just look at your right leg . The most efficient way to drove any vehicle, either electric, ice or ehybrid, is to change your driving style and techniques. This topic had been discussed in various threads . We as current owners can’t help you calculate your cost savings only you can do it . Buy it based on your needs/wants not on what you try and thing it will save you . For the majority of us , yes issues come up here and there , it was a no brainer and we’d do it all again . Again, only you can make your own savings based on why you want it and how you drive it . Good luck with whatever you choose to decide .
 

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I bought a 17, so there weren't a lot of deals available at the time... however, with the tax rebate, the hybrid with the features that I wanted was about the same cost as a similarly equipped gas Pacifica The dealer tried to talk me out of waiting for the hybrid, and after it arrived I found that he hadn't ordered it in my name from the factory (which would have expedited the build/delivery) but just placed a spec order for his dealership. He had no motivation for my buying a car that he wasn't getting a better margin on.

I take a long trip every couple of months, so I've driven 34000 miles in 2 years. I drive mainly electric at home, where the cost of energy is about 1/2 the cost of gasoline, but probably only averaging 60% electric overall. But even in hybrid mode, this car gets about 30mpg and has a range of 400+ miles... plus the safety features really help on a long drive. I've only had minor issues in past couple of years, all covered by warranty, and I'm not really worried about replacing the battery... my other vehicles and appliances don't magically break down the day their warranty ends, and I don't expect this car to break down in 3 years when the main warranty ends, so why would I expect the batteries to become toast at 10 years or 100,000 miles? My last Chrysler van lasted 15 years, and I expect to keep my Pacifica for at least 10 unless something major happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
pounce, I’m not sure why anyone would want to invest their time into helping you. You’re certainly not doing anything positive that would encourage someone else to do the work for you. You appear lazy, ungrateful, and combative. Take a moment to think about what might encourage others to be helpful to you.
Please point out where I have been combative, lazy or ungrateful. Certainly, you don't have to post if you have no knowledge on the topic, but a plea for some help is just that. I'm not sure trying to shame a member because they don't ask in just the right way for you makes a lot of sense.

So I asked a very normal question. Nobody here knows how much research I have done, but I've reached to point where I wanted to hear from owners and owners that have clearly or hopefully made their choice based on some real data. Golly, that seems like a good discussion worthy topic.

I asked:

Sadly, I started out committed to the PHEV version, but after considering the long term risks/costs I'm leaning back toward a gas version. Can anyone correct me? I'm posting here because everyone with a PHEV is sure to be able to steer me in the right way with the concerns. I'm not totally sold that PHEV is going to save me any money over time.

Can anyone talk some sense into me?
What I got was:

  • Someone tells me there is a tow package
  • Someone judging my for wanting to lower the van
Then I put some work into detailing the tow package topic in a very neutral factual way and I got a snarky response.

Now I have you being some sort of forum bully calling me lazy, ungrateful and combative.

I can only determine that you and the other people being critical of me have no idea how to sell the value of the PHEV and therefore could not help if you wanted to. I am assuming you took a leap of faith and believe your PHEV is saving you money and since you have nothing to offer you would rather just be hateful.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
:cautious:


We actually own.

Don't waste our time counteracting members/owners trying to help.
Not sure what you mean. You are free to post or not post, but actively bullying me or being hateful is against the forum rules. I'd call trying to shame someone for not yet owning a van is just plain weird and anti community.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I think if you do the math it’s quite easy . I’ve traveled 30000s , 90% of that has been electric , and have paid roughly 0 for next to nothing for it . I’ve installed a juice box pro 40 ( nema ) outlet in my house and put oem 20 ‘s ( black S rims ) on it . I’ve noticed less than a 1% loss of efficiency due to that . Adding bigger tires and rims ( esp non oem adds more rotating mass to the vehicle at all four corners ). If your truly looking for savings/efficiency then just look at your right leg . The most efficient way to drove any vehicle, either electric, ice or ehybrid, is to change your driving style and techniques. This topic had been discussed in various threads . We as current owners can’t help you calculate your cost savings only you can do it . Buy it based on your needs/wants not on what you try and thing it will save you . For the majority of us , yes issues come up here and there , it was a no brainer and we’d do it all again . Again, only you can make your own savings based on why you want it and how you drive it . Good luck with whatever you choose to decide .
Thanks. Do you charge more than once a day or drive more than 30 miles a day on electric?
 

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Discussion Starter #27
... I'm not really worried about replacing the battery... my other vehicles and appliances don't magically break down the day their warranty ends, and I don't expect this car to break down in 3 years when the main warranty ends, so why would I expect the batteries to become toast at 10 years or 100,000 miles? My last Chrysler van lasted 15 years, and I expect to keep my Pacifica for at least 10 unless something major happens.
This is where I'm just going through the decision making. Other plugins have seen greater than 15% reduction in battery even at 10k miles. We don't really expect things to happen, but they do and that is just part of the risk. If things didn't break and people didn't think about risk there would not be a warranty on the car. In our case they made it 100k or 150k miles and 10 years. I think that is a good selling point and I'm sure folks being skeptical of the life of the battery make the warranties this long. Maybe its just competition in the market. I'm not totally sure.

The big question about the warranty is the risk that happens if I hit 100k miles in just a few years. Then even weird small things can become expensive. I think maybe more expensive than ICE vans because it has the complexity of the plugin and the complexity of the fuel engine. A battery pack doesn't get serviced. It gets replaced and that is around 8k. The drive is around 8-10k. These are big numbers if those things have a problem out of warranty.

The value on a 2017 Hybrid Platinum with 30k is about $26k today. Not too bad. If I put 100k on that same car the value is about $17k today. Maybe a more average number for 5 years is 50k. That value is about $23k. This is the valuation service that dealers use.
 

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Warnings have been issued. Bans will be next if the culprits don't behave. Let's get this thread back on track.
 

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This is where I'm just going through the decision making. Other plugins have seen greater than 15% reduction in battery even at 10k miles. We don't really expect things to happen, but they do and that is just part of the risk. If things didn't break and people didn't think about risk there would not be a warranty on the car. In our case they made it 100k or 150k miles and 10 years. I think that is a good selling point and I'm sure folks being skeptical of the life of the battery make the warranties this long. Maybe its just competition in the market. I'm not totally sure.

The big question about the warranty is the risk that happens if I hit 100k miles in just a few years. Then even weird small things can become expensive. I think maybe more expensive than ICE vans because it has the complexity of the plugin and the complexity of the fuel engine. A battery pack doesn't get serviced. It gets replaced and that is around 8k. The drive is around 8-10k. These are big numbers if those things have a problem out of warranty.
I hadn't heard about the issues with battery reduction at such low mileage before. My husband has a 2012 Tesla that he drives about 10K miles per year (we use my Pacifica for most long trips). It's mostly local, but he occasionally needs to travel about 220 miles for work projects. We haven't seen any reduction in range in the time we've owned it... almost 7 years. I've had my Pacifica just over 2 years and still get 30-32 miles on a charge if traffic is good... it can be as low as 25 depending on my commute conditions, but that was the case just after getting it, so I don't perceive any change.

I was worried about the complexity of the electronics so I bought the extended warranty (which I know doesn't cover the battery or hybrid system). This is the first vehicle that I've ever bought one for. My last van ran really well for the first 10 years or so, and then developed a few issues... I almost replaced it, but waited an extra year after they hybrid was announced because I didn't want another ICE van and the hybrid SUVs on the market really don't have the same capacity.
 

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Why would autocorrect opt for Sooner’s rather than sooner? Sooner’s isn’t even a word, unless you’re talking about the belongings of a student/alumnus/a of Indiana!
Last I heard, a Sooner would sooner choose to live in Oklahoma! Hoosier geography teacher, anyway? ;)
 

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Last I heard, a Sooner would sooner choose to live in Oklahoma! Hoosier geography teacher, anyway? ;)
Oh my goodness, you're right! It's the -er at the end that tripped me up. That along with the fact that after more than 40 years on this earth I have no idea what the etymology of a Sooner or a Hoosier is! Good catch, Waldo!
 

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This is where I'm just going through the decision making. Other plugins have seen greater than 15% reduction in battery even at 10k miles. We don't really expect things to happen, but they do and that is just part of the risk. If things didn't break and people didn't think about risk there would not be a warranty on the car. In our case they made it 100k or 150k miles and 10 years. I think that is a good selling point and I'm sure folks being skeptical of the life of the battery make the warranties this long. Maybe its just competition in the market. I'm not totally sure.

The big question about the warranty is the risk that happens if I hit 100k miles in just a few years. Then even weird small things can become expensive. I think maybe more expensive than ICE vans because it has the complexity of the plugin and the complexity of the fuel engine. A battery pack doesn't get serviced. It gets replaced and that is around 8k. The drive is around 8-10k. These are big numbers if those things have a problem out of warranty.

The value on a 2017 Hybrid Platinum with 30k is about $26k today. Not too bad. If I put 100k on that same car the value is about $17k today. Maybe a more average number for 5 years is 50k. That value is about $23k. This is the valuation service that dealers use.
I cant help with the subjective issues here but perhaps I can run some numbers for you based on your driving profile and region.

The green value, the experience, and the costs/fears of ownership are too personal to address.

I have found that a Gas vehicle has an advantage in its marketing that customers understand what they will get straight up. A MPG has a explicit value to an operator nation wide whereas the MPGe is misleading. MPGe is so heavily offset by regional alternative fuel pricing (electricity for us). In my region the MPGe should be doubled, and in some areas it is less than half the displayed.

How you intend to use the vehicle can make or break your experience; EV efficiency is opposite ICE efficiencies. An EV shines in short trip, city driving in stop and go and is at its poorest on the highway, and vice versa. AC and heaters eat range, so closer you area is to 20c or (68f) the less it looses. And some EV’s are tuned to capture true stop & go regen better than others.

Myself and @stop-eject have been working on measuring the battery decay. This takes time since we need to observe the occurring decay in our own vehicles. Something to be aware of is the 16.7kWh battery has protected margins that reserve approx 35% of the battery (Green on graph).

The loss from aging doesnt always have a direct effect on the range immediately.. and the aging is not linear, there is a natural settling that is to be expected with Li-Ion batteries depending on the discharge habits. The designed life is expected to be 10yrs minimum with any style of usage. The range is true to advertised for the average driver and with some techniques it is even better which cant be said for a lot of marketing.

42417


The Tesla members have been collecting battery aging data and have extrapolated it to provide a spectacular 30yrs of service under the right conditions. This is the chemistries ability, still limited to sensors, physical connections and computers reliability.

42418


These conditions are much easier to achieve with the massive batteries in Tesla’s because of the shallow discharge between recharges which provide very little stress.

However all this tech has not completed a natural, single life cycle yet. So academic estimates are the best thats available.

Please share how you intend to use the vehicle and where your locates and we can run some numbers and see how the Pachy fits for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Thank you. This is very helpful. The battery studies I've read so far were Leaf related around using type 1 vs type 2 chargers.

Please share how you intend to use the vehicle and where your locates and we can run some numbers and see how the Pachy fits for you.
I'm in the Atlanta area so it's hot during the summer and not terribly cold in the winter, but it does get to freezing and below. My commute is 20 miles each way, but we do have type 2 chargers at work and might be able to get one of those spots maybe once a week. There is competition. At the moment I am avoiding stop and go traffic by shifting my hours, but that wont probably last another year and I'll be back in some stop and go for at least one leg of the commute. In other words today the 20 is 70% highway speeds.

I have a typical residential rate, but Georgia Power does offer some plans that can allow for tiered pricing for vehicles. I haven't dug into this too much and honestly assume it's a wash for this vehicle vs something like owning a couple of Tesla's.

Outside of commute we do about 5-8k a year in family trips where it's generally assumed we wont be plugging in for 3-4 weeks of the year due to the logistics of plugs and unknown locations.

I'll probably drive this van for 18months and then hand it over to my wife for soccer mom duty while I move over to a Rivian. So at the 18-24 month point different power plans for off-peak might shift economics more.

Let me know if I can provide more info. Thanks again for posting.
 

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Hey @pounce, i botched this.. my apologies. I’ve revised it correctly now.
  • 5 days a week 20mi each way for 10,400mi commute -7,800mi covered by home electricity without charging at work
  • 5000 - 8000mi vacation yearly running in hybrid mode will be a near wash and comparable to an ICE model on the highway and isnt worth focusing on.
The EPA rating for our Hybrid is 40kWh/100mi, so your yearly commute is worth approx 3120kWh of electricity.

Your Georgia Power’s tiered plans are aggrssive and will be key to how you can save.

On Peak: $0.2032/kWh
Off Peak: $0.0659/kWh
Super off Peak: $0.0142/kWh



For your commute alone thats a massive difference between costs and would be worth-while using the tiered plan.

Peak hours: $633.98 yearly
Off Peak: $206.61 yearly
Super Off Peak: $44.30 yearly


A gas pacifica averaging 25mpg combined at Alanta Georgia average Gas prices of $2.63/Gallon will burn 416gallons for the commute alone - $1095 yearly

Since you will likely drive in hybrid mode for the remaining if you cant get the charger at work, You’ll use fuel for the 2600mi at around 35MPG instead of approx 25mpg - you’ll use about 30 Gallons less fuel than the ICE pacifica during this time for about an additional $78.90 yearly.

$712.88 a year combined reduction in cost (65% saving on your work mileage)
is your return on the hybrid over a Gas Pacifica.. not really dramatic savings for you.. Mine however is $5000 a year and much more worth while.

You can reduce your commute expense by up to $1000 once you transfer vehicles to the Rivian or cover the entire commute in electric only mode.

The Rivian marketing material indicates it has a 45kWh/100mi EPA estimate and will be very similar to the Pacifica Hybrid for costs.

....
Edit: my commute is not 20mi..

I Drive 25km(15mi) each way at about 40-50mph, have access to a level 2 charger at work but dont always get to use it and my weather get up to about 100f in the summer, and to freezing in the winters, and periodically as low as 20f. (However fuel here is $5.80/gallon year average..)

I find in the spring when temps are nice out I dont use climate and get to work with 60% battery remaining. And can get home with approximately 10% (traffics worse).

In the summer and Climate the van uses 50% battery to get to work and due to school being out it uses 48% battery to get home - its REALLY close.. when the engine starts up it runs rich and you can see the gauge move like 1/32 of a tank. I prevent this by charging at work, even for 5min.

Fall is same as spring.. easy breezy.

Winter burns fuel - It unavoidable mostly but It will run Electric if you try hard enough. Nice part is it preheats, then only runs the engine only to maintain temperatures. I use 2 tanks a winter.

I have used 1 tank of fuel this calendar year (with a family vacation - Get PlugShare app and see how available public EVSE’s are).

Also, I use the supplied Level 1 charger on 208v and get 6hr charge times and dont need it to be any faster, I can come home at midnight and be ready to go to work at 6am. Soccer mom lifestyle might warrant a 30A Level 2 EVSE but because your going to be a 2 EV household its not a waste.

Dont trust the Pacificas scheduled Charge timer for the Super Off Peak charging, you’ll want a EVSE based timer for reliable charging.

Hope this helps understand the vehicle.
 

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Oh, just for the fun of it..

(Gallon price / electricity price) / 33.7 = correction factor.

If you pay $0.2032/kWh and your gas is worth $2.63/gallon the energy consumption gauge can be converted to a economy guage by multiplying the guage value by 0.384.

84MPGe is like paying for 32.25MPG.

If you pay the Off Peak $0.0659/kWh things get better than average for you and you can multiply the guage value by 1.184.

84MPGe is like paying for 99.48MPG at this rate.

The Super Off Peak rate is crazy cheap at $0.0142/kWh and is multipled by 5.495 which is spectacular!

84MPGe is like paying for 461.58MPG!

Proof: $44.30 in super off peak electricity buys you 16.85 Gallons of fuel at $2.63/Gallon and takes you 7,800mi.

7,800 / 16.85 gallons = 462 miles per gallon.

But your paying so little already that you even if you save all of it, it doesnt amount to very much.
 

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Not sure if it helps your battery fears, but anecdotally I haven't seen any reduction in 2.5 years and 33k miles. I still get the same 33 on the meter it showed when I bought it. I level 2 charge multiple times a day nearly every day, with either the Clipper Creek model at work or my JuiceBox Pro 40 at home. I'm in Iowa, so our temps vary wildly. I've driven in temps as low as -20 with no humidity and as high as 105 with 90% humidity.

I don't see much range reduction in the higher temps to run the AC, but low temps will trigger the ICE for me. I park in a heated garage at home, so it doesn't run much in the morning when cold, but it runs much of the way home warming up.

My round trip is a 50/50 mix of highway and surface street driving of about 30.4 miles. I get home with 0-2 showing on the meter each day. Less in winter of course.

I fill about once every 3-4 months in the spring/summer/fall and once a month in the winter.

For what it's worth, the front chin of mine scrapes on some driveways and speed bumps. I rub on the way out of the daycare every day. If you lower it, you'll be rubbing even more. This thing rides pretty low as is. I don't care about the 22's, but I'd be worried about clearance issues in everyday driving if you lower it.
 
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