There are no gears in this transmission like a conventional trranny . Have you put in gas to eliminate the form cycling ? . Have you actually read any of the manuals of this vehicle since you’ve bought it ?

 

As my original post stated, yes I read the manual. Yes, I also just put more fuel in the vehicle to disable FORM. How to fix that wasn’t the point of my post. If gas mileage is expected to drop to a small fraction of what they should be, that should be explicitly in the manual. Going into FORM also shouldn’t make your vehicle feel like a jerky rollercoaster when driving below 30mph.

I was curious to get others thoughts on “average fuel economy” across 900+ miles, and whether the drop from 50+ to low 20’s over the course of a couple days of short highway trips is normal.

 

From the pictures, it looks like FORM was burning up almost half a tank in over 100 miles? If so, that's why your average MPGs is so low. Now since you've added gas, reset your Trip B meter. Your average MPG should be much higher now if your primarily drive in EV and not in FORM. Next time when FORM comes on, add at least 4 gallons of gas right away. Are you still hearing loud sounds from the transmission when you're not in FORM anymore?

 

From the pictures, it looks like FORM was burning up almost half a tank in over 100 miles? If so, that's why your average MPGs is so low.

Yes, this is the main point I’m hoping to get some feedback on. The rate at which my fuel declined was alarming. Nowhere I’ve looked was I able to see anything that indicated FORM would take gas-only MPG below 10mpg in order to process the burn off. Perhaps that’s implied and undocumented (or I missed it), but if it’s not expected (ie you won’t get hybrid 30mpg, but should still be above 20 and not hear loud jolts in your transmission), I’m just trying to make sure it isn’t something more serious with the drive train. I feel it is going to be hard to explain this to the service department now that it’s off.

Once I added fuel, FORM turned off as expected, as did the jolt and knocking sound. However, I’d like to avoid the repeat situation in the future, and since I’m mostly electric all the time anyway, it seems almost unavoidable up to some point unless I take longer trips or purposely burn up gas again when it kicks on the next time.

 

You’ll see in the display in the instrument panel a display will appear and say oil / gas refresh going on .

 

I don’t follow. I know what FORM is, and I know when it kicked on by viewing the notice on the instrument panel. My post is to say something is either seriously wrong with my vehicle, or they should advertise that when your vehicle goes into FORM that you’re going to get 5 miles per gallon until you put the necessary 4 gallons in it (because as Trigger-happy noticed, I blew through half a tank of gas going 100 miles - did you see the photos?).

FORM also doesn’t explain the jolts in the vehicle that outside spectators turned to look at when driving through a parking lot.

 

I’ve had form happen once and all you hear is the motor but this tranny is a one speed so you won’t feel anything from tranny because your driving and the tranny is in motion . You stated between 1 and 2 gear so I’d honestly take a lot what people put up forum with a grain of salt . If your tranny switched from. 1-2 hear you better see if dealership sold you a gas version .

 

You’re right, it’s a CVT. I think you’re trying to be helpful, but comments like “see if dealership sold you a gas version” aren’t. Regardless of any gear shifts I misstated, listen to the jumps at 3s, 10s and right before the end of the video here:



These are not roadbumps. That is me taking my foot on and off the gas at around 30mph just before I put fuel in the tank, and something tells me those sounds aren’t normal.

 

Averaging 24 mpg on a brand new motor doesn't strike me as out of line for a Pinnacle, especially if most of the miles are stop and go in town.

 

If a true blended average I might agree with you, but I don’t think that’s the case here (and far below the 30mpg estimate even in city). As I noted in my first post and photos posted, 703.4 miles are electric only with about 50-100 mixed with some gas for one long trip back the day I bought the van. The average at that time was over 50. The next 100 miles or so was form only and took the entire average down below 24. That means the mpg during that time was abysmal - and again - half a tank of gas on 100 miles with at least 3/4 of that on highway. That is not expected (and as far I can have read in forums and manuals, not noted anywhere).

 

Even not charged you should be getting at least 30 but give it some time to break in as well .

 

It’s def not the tranny , and the tranny is a a evt one, I watched your power band and it’s not your motor or tranny that’s making noise .

 

If not motor or tranny, any ideas what the knocking / jolt could be?

 

Any thoughts? Does FORM burn through fuel at an unusually high rate, and should I expect anything from the dealership when I take it in in 2 weeks (first available appointment).

@jmarston...ignore the rude replies. Like you, FORM came on for me, as expected, after months of almost all electric-only use. Like you, my tank seemed to empty at an alarming rate. FORM stayed on for several days and after I re-filled the tank it went off. A few days later and everything seems to be back to normal. I think the reason the tank seemed to empty so quickly is because frankly the van doesn't get great fuel economy when not in electric or hybrid mode. That should be obvious, but when you're used to the incredible electric economy, it can take you by surprise.

 

The van only runs on either electric or hybrid mode . Even in form your running on hybrid mode . The reason the van is plummeting in gas consumption has no bearing on vans mileage . So making comments about it not running on ehybrid and full on gas mode is just shows your lack of knowledge . The battery never drops below state of charge ans you will always use the powertrain of electric truck or engine/electric truck . Mileage is based upon your driving style , weather , weight , etc . The comments are based upon people’s lack of knowledge of the vehicle and the ability to learn about the vehicle prior or during current ownership . During winter months here in Toronto , with dedicated snows , the vehicle still gets great mileage . We understand that not every vehicle is perfect , vast amount of people who post here are posting complaints , but at least due your due diligence about the pros and cons of any vehicle .

 

I'll just add a couple things. I've had FORM come on twice with ours - only owned since earlier this year. Could the noise and jerky feeling be the engine turning on and off instead of the transmission? I seem to remember it being strangely jerky when FORM was on, where otherwise it seems to be almost unnoticeable. Possibly because it's picking a different time to turn the engine on/off with FORM on.
Can't really say much on the mileage during FORM as we've tried to add gas quickly, but keep in mind it's not running in the usual hybrid mode with FORM on. The battery isn't really being used much, and in fact I've found it'll actually recharge the battery when in FORM. Really seems like it's trying to use as much gas as possible in this mode.
Better test might be to run your battery down and see if the mileage in hybrid only mode is as expected. If not, then there's likely a problem. The dealer probably won't care what the mileage is during FORM as I don't think most of them even really understand it. There's more details on FORM in these forums than you'd ever be able to get from a dealer.

 

The only sure way to determine gas mileage is to fill the tank and divide the miles driven on gas by the number of gallons added. And even that won't give you a totally accurate number because the electric battery still kicks in every so often.

As I understand it, you are saying that the fuel gauge went from full to 3/4 after 50 to 100 miles of hybrid use, right? The fuel tank holds 16.5 gallons, so if the gauge is accurate, you used a bit over 4 gallons to go 50 to 100 miles. In turn, that means your gas mileage was somewhere between 12.5 and 25 mpg during that period if you rely on the gauge. Those numbers are a long way from the displayed 50 mpg.

The knocking/jolt is the real cause for concern. The dealer won't be able to duplicate if it is not in FORM and so will not address the issue unless there are codes to pinpoint an issue. When a I test drove a Pacifica hybrid, it happened to be in FORM at the time and it displayed no such odd behavior.

 

Pardon the delays in responses, but wanted to share an update and respond to a few of the helpful posts before this:

• I took the vehicle into service on Monday after getting FORM turned off (put 4 gallons in the truck). Service Dept acted like they had no idea what FORM was, and it took me showing photos and videos for multiple staff members to say "oh, that doesn't look right".
• After a day in the shop, they indicated they were not able to find any mechanical issues with the vehicle (no surprise since FORM was turned off). However, they did say my vehicle had at least 3 software updates that needed to be applied - one being the rear hatch issue I described below.
• Since applying those updates: no repeat of hatch issues, my vehicle is finally logging driving history on the PHEV settings again (even though it didn't the day I drove to and from the shop), and MPG and battery life seem to be back to expected state (a quirk I reported in another post).

I'm curious how others have been able to "prevent" going into FORM with over 1k miles and little to no gas use, but I'm going to try and use a gallon or so every week where I can moving forward to avoid the pain that was FORM. To some of the other notes before:

As I understand it, you are saying that the fuel gauge went from full to 3/4 after 50 to 100 miles of hybrid use, right? The fuel tank holds 16.5 gallons, so if the gauge is accurate, you used a bit over 4 gallons to go 50 to 100 miles. In turn, that means your gas mileage was somewhere between 12.5 and 25 mpg during that period if you rely on the gauge. Those numbers are a long way from the displayed 50 mpg.

The knocking/jolt is the real cause for concern. The dealer won't be able to duplicate if it is not in FORM and so will not address the issue unless there are codes to pinpoint an issue.

At 1/2 a 16.5g tank of gas use for 50-100 miles, that would be 6.06 to 12.12mpg, not 12.5 to 25. The displayed 50 mpg was taken a little after FORM initially came on. Before that it and over 700 miles, the car had 55+ mpg displayed. From that point to the point of the photo showing 929 miles, the overall mpg for the vehicle dropped to below 25. You're right about the dealer's ability to reproduce the error. In fact, when I arrived they looked at me like I was speaking an unknown foreign language when I even brought up FORM. A major pain!

Just because the tranny doesn't have conventional gears doesn't mean it can't be the source of the noise. Have you tried running the battery down and using the gas engine to see if that sound comes back? Just need to clarify if it's cleared up because it's doing electric only, or if you've run with gas similar to what FORM was doing. Would be very strange if it only happens only with FORM on, and would be a real pain to reproduce.

Your'e right, the ability to reproduce was non-existent, and frankly I'm a little mad at myself for "turning FORM off" by adding 4 gallons before I visited the shop. There's unquestionably an issue with something on the vehicle to make those knocking sounds, but I guess I'll have to hope it never reverts to FORM to go "show" a dealer next time.

In a way makes sense if the van is trying to burn fuel to avoid it to get stale, so any measure to save gas would actually work against it's goal of emptying the tank enough to get out of FORM mode.

I completely agree with this - my main frustration is that a) the service dept could not confirm this was the case, and b) if vehicle will burn at such an accelerated rate while in FORM, you'd think that would be documented somewhere in the manuals (maybe I missed, but from comments here it doesn't seem that's the case).

I'm glad I found this Forum. My 2021 PACHY Limited just did this same thing. I had less than 600 miles on it; and haven't put gas in it since my full tank from purchase. Tank got down to 3/4 and FORM message came on. Next thing you know, the vehicle sounded like it was going to fall apart on me. Loud clunks..and felt like it was going to stall.

I still does not make me feel good about the loud clunky experience, but at least I know the root cause and a solution. Service Advisor is not very helpful.

Completely agree, and "glad(?)" to know somebody else has experienced it in a way. While canceling service dept was probably the right call, might advise you ask about any software updates that your vehicle may have pending, because at least 1 seems to have corrected some odd issues my new ride has been having.

Thanks again all!

 

Just because the tranny doesn't have conventional gears doesn't mean it can't be the source of the noise. Have you tried running the battery down and using the gas engine to see if that sound comes back? Just need to clarify if it's cleared up because it's doing electric only, or if you've run with gas similar to what FORM was doing. Would be very strange if it only happens only with FORM on, and would be a real pain to reproduce.

 

Please try to be civil in this forum. This vehicle is very complex. The manual is voluminous is even more complex. Owners have different levels of understanding and experience. Corrections of mistaken statements can be done kindly and without insulting.

Thanks

 

My Limited went into FORM awhile back. My millage dropped from 60 to the 30s. I had the same noises from the transmission and took it in for service. They did two flash updates and it was out of FORM when returned. I agree keeping the fuel tank low enough so you can add fuel to get it out of FORM. I think with the battery at or near 100% and Form causes the motors in the transmission to switch back and forth. My current trip info is:
925.0 total miles
694.5 electric miles
230.7 Hybrid miles
59 MPG
I run in electric most of the time and half of the Hybrid was from FORM. I have not added gas since purchased.2/26/2021

 

See my post on another thread below...I have only experienced FORM once in my ownership, with a fully charged battery. That being said keep in mind in FORM the engine will constantly run at a minimum RPM, even when stopped. With the Si-Evt there Is no way to disconnect the engine from the gear train and motors. When the battery pack is not fully charged my theory is there is no noticeable difference in the drivetrain other than the engine is continuously running. Excess torque from the ICE is routed to the generator motor to serve the energy to the battery.

However, if the battery pack is full, and your vehicle speed is lower than the natural gear ratio associated with the engine power being routed exclusively to the final drive gear through the planetary gears (see videos on YouTube from Prof. Kelly to learn how this transmission works) then there is excess torque being produced by the ICE which can't turn the wheels, as such this excess torque is dissipated via the single clutch pack in the transmission as heat/friction. Now this clutch is really only used in this scenario, we never otherwise feel it or the "jerk" when it is slipping, nor do I bet Chrysler was over concerned with comfort over function in this mode.

I didn't engineer the Si-Evt but knowing how it was helps me have comfort that no harm is occurring in FORM. If it is bothersome then simply perform the conditions to get it to exit the mode.

Transmission seams to run ruff in FORM

My 2021 Pacifica Hybrid went into FORM yesterday for the first time, which it was expected. While in FORM it seams like the transmission is ruff like trying to switch from EV to gas. It has been fine in Hybrid an EV modes when not in FORM. Has anyone else had this experience.

www.pacificaforums.com

 

FWIW - My BMW 330e and my BMW i3 Rex never did this. Both were smooth running machines. I have an 2021 Audi Q5 Hybrid on order. I'm hoping for a better ride with that as well. This PACHY is a dog mobile for our 4 huskies and it only goes around town..at least for now.

 

I'm late to the party here I know but... it seems like running in FORM mode is something to be avoided.
Question: If you accelerate heavily and cause the ICE to kick in and take up the slack, if you do that often enough will that negate the need for FORM to occur?

p.s. this thing really kicks it on the freeway on-ramp when you mash the throttle

 

No, frequent short runs if the ICE will bring on the oil variant of FORM to get rid of moisture in the oil since it never gets heated up enough in those short runs. Maybe if you run at 80+ mph for a while, long enough to get the oil hot...

The best way to avoid FORM, I've found, is to go for a long trip every now and then, and keep the tank low enough that you can go fill up 5 gallons if it were to start. We always keep the tank between 25 and 50% so we have plenty of room to add 5 gal, and when we happen to go by the gas station we put 5 in. Haven't had FORM for well over a year now.

I suspect the weird behavior the OP experienced was what happens when the battery gets overcharged. Normally, when the engine is running, it will largely run the ICE at constant power and use excess power not going to the wheels to charge the battery. But if the battery is fully charged, it can't do that. If it's also not allowed to turn the ICE off, the engine controller is in a weird spot. I think it's just not very well tuned for that.

In the movie by the OP, you can see the power gauge going up and down. I dunno if that's the accelerator being modulated or the engine controller doing that by itself. I do think that going on/off throttle at low speed in this situation results in some weird behavior since every time it goes off throttle it essentially has to disconnect the ICE from the MGs to avoid overcharging the battery, and then going on throttle it spins them up again. It would be better in this situation if it just kept the ICE idling and ran on the battery, but since the ICE is running it's probably programmed to use it for motive power.

 

(I realize this is an old thread, but for the following folks)
When FORM kicks in your are, effectively, no longer driving a hybrid - you're now driving a regular gas driven vehicle, a big heavy one. Yes the average MPG will drop FAST at that point. In fact I would expect the hybrid Pacifica in FORM will get worse gas mileage than the ICE Pacifica because the ICE version still has auto stop/start working when at a full stop.
In any car where the average MPG calculation is showing on the dash you'll see it rapidly drop when sitting at a stop light, or accelerating, even gently, from a full stop.

So, in short, to me, working as expected.

 

Bumping this up, as I'm experiencing this same exact issue on my 2021 Hybrid.

I've ran in gas mode before, and it's been buttery smooth.
But FORM has been on for like a week now, and it's ROUGH. I had 7/8 of a tank of gas in it, so I don't think there was enough gone for me to go and fill it & turn it off.
About 3,400 miles on the van and 1 year old, but this is the first time FORM has come on for me.

When sitting at a light or a stop, something keeps engaging & disengaging and you can feel a little hiccup/jerk/bump throughout the car.
It's pretty annoying and not buttery smooth at all.
Even my daughter, sitting in the back, noticed the "bucking" while this engaging/disengaging was going on with the motor running.


What is it?

 

What is it?

Normal

 

Is it just ironic that this was the first and only time FORM has ran on my van (1 year of ownership) and it started right when the "change oil" message popped up too?

I took it in for an oil change & the 2 recalls though, yesterday.
The guy wasn't familiar with the Pacifica Hybrid (go figure), but said that the Jeep Wrangler PHEV would usually run it's FORM mode when it was due for an oil change and would turn off after the oil change light was reset.

Is the Pacifica that way too, possibly?

 

Well, follow up.....

After the oil change, when I picked it up, FORM was done/wasn't running and it's back in EV mode again.