[PacDave]

1. Substantially cheaper? 20%?

2. 'As cheap or cheaper' denotes a not so considerable savings but a potential 'coin flip' of value.


Will the price drop from the op link offset your initial/ongoing savings?
I think so.
Net loss it appears if the op link can be trusted.
(Look up car industry term 'back of book' to add to the decline)

No subsidy, apartment rental...is there any value?
Because:
Look up on YouTube;
Long charging line for cars.
Please debunk this.

Doesn’t have to be cheaper. If I can get a hybrid that gets better gas mileage than the straight ICE at the same price that’s good enough for me.

As far as the net loss goes you must first add back the $7500 (net gain) I made on tax credit. Then, it no longer seems like a big loss.

 

[Ducksface]

'No longer seems like a BIG loss.'
The hybrid is a loss per you.


If a small loss is acceptable for no reason other than electrics sake,

How is that not the Very definition of a hobby?

Classic tax(type)definition of hobby:
An output of funds/effort into an ongoing project with no expectation of profit.

And
You are a specific who already owns one.

I'm not trying to convince you.
I'm trying to convince potential buyers that you've said it's a coin toss based on price and that you acknowledge it's a loss, so potential buyers can need a reason other rah-rah to buy one.

 

[Ducksface]

Doesn’t have to be cheaper. If I can get a hybrid that gets better gas mileage than the straight ICE at the same price that’s good enough for me.

As far as the net loss goes you must first add back the $7500 (net gain) I made on tax credit. Then, it no longer seems like a big loss.

 

[SitKneelBend]

See you had everything right up until the end. Everything pollutes. It's just a matter of how much. If you think BEV's don't pollute then you sound like a cultist.

See you had everything right up until the end. Everything pollutes. It's just a matter of how much. If you think BEV's don't pollute then you sound like a cultist.

Most forget to factor this into the the equation (conveniently?). If I had to guess, the majority of electric cars are powered by coal and natural gas. The $7500 tax credit (IMO) is more of a subsidy for the auto makers rather than the consumer as their prices raised with the announcement and may likely fall with the credit's expiration proportionately.

That being said, PHEVs (or hybrids generally) are theybest, current way to get the most efficiency out of gas engines. There are some things electric motors are just better at and their coupling with ICE allows for significant performance gains and the recapturing of energy normally lost to friction braking.

Barring a major breakthrough in battery technology, the ICE is hear to stay with loads of innovation coming it's way (like the Ramcharger)...

 

[millerbjm]

I just ran the value of my my 2022 pachy limited and an equally equipped 2022 pacifica ice and the ice is worth approx 1k more. When I purchased the PHEV had a premium of about 4k over the ice version but I did qualify for the tax credit so it was approx $3,500 less final cost. I have driven both and find the phev to be superior to drive due to torulque, superior transmission and regen braking and because I make lots of short trips and am able to buy electricity at $0.02/kwh I have already seen substantial savings in operating costs vs ice. Factoring in all these variables I believe I am still ahead financially when compared to an gas pacifica by a few thousand dollars. In addition once gas prices inevitably rise again the values of the phev will likely rebound.

 

[Ducksface]

There is what's called
Soft.
It means that demand is low.

There is what's called
Back of book
Which means there is a discount applied to the book value.
Book value is a regional guideline, not a law.

The pac hybrids are soft
And therefore,
Back of book.

Back of book can be half the book value.

Example:
Directly after the
pinto explosion thing
Explorer roll overs
Merkur orphan
Daewoo(remember those?)
VW diesel scam
Mr2 wrecks
Saturn
Fiero
VW Phaeton(booked at $68,000 and bought for $28,000)
8.1L chevy's during the 2005 gas thing went $6k back of book.

Don't think for a second blink that book value was honored.

Dealers know of 10,000 multiples of the problems we read about daily.
I'm not sure but I'll guess 1:10,000 Pac owners are forum members, yet all go to the dealer with a complaint.
ALL.
Pac hybrid problems are well known to dealers. If they don't want them, they go back of book by thousands of dollars.

Do not believe a dealer is going to give book value for a problem vehicle.

'I have 15 new ones on the lot that I can't get rid of and six broken customer units in service.
I need yours only so I can flip people who do not qualify for a new one.
It is truly the only reason. It books for $28k. I'll give you $21k so I can sell it cheap to those who qualify only for cheap.'

That must sound familiar(ish)

 

[millerbjm]

There is what's called
Soft.
It means that demand is low.

There is what's called
Back of book
Which means there is a discount applied to the book value.
Book value is a regional guideline, not a law.

The pac hybrids are soft
And therefore,
Back of book.

Back of book can be half the book value.

Example:
Directly after the
pinto explosion thing
Explorer roll overs
Merkur orphan
Daewoo(remember those?)
VW diesel scam
Mr2 wrecks
Saturn
Fiero
VW Phaeton(booked at $68,000 and bought for $28,000)

Don't think for a second blink that book value was honored.

Dealers know of 10,000 multiples of the problems we read about daily.
I'm not sure but I'll guess 1:10,000 Pac owners are forum members, yet all go to the dealer with a complaint.
ALL.

Do not believe a dealer is going to give book value for a problem vehicle.

'I have 15 new ones on the lot that I can't get rid of and six broken customer units in service.
I need yours only so I can flip people who do not qualify for a new one.
It is truly the only reason. It books for $28k. I'll give you $21k so I can sell it cheap to those who qualify only for cheap.'

That must sound familiar(ish)

I am confident I could sell for book value as it is based on actual recent sales in my area of similar units. I've bought and sold many cars and worked closely with dealers and wholesalers so I'm confident in my value estimation. In addition I don't buy cars based just on depreciation or resale value but rather a host or factors including driving experience, utility and operating cost and this pachy is one of the best in those categories so I'm very happy with it.

As far as sales of pachy's being soft that is an interesting opinion considering the pacifica hybrid saw an surge of 329% in total U.S. sales. It accounted for a notable 23% (8,949 units) of the total Pacifica sales in Q3, ranking as the third-best-selling PHEV in the U.S. Seems lots of buyers are interested. There is a lot of supply right now on dealer lots but that will not last forever

 

[Ducksface]

This isn't about individual stories of perceived value in a purchase already made.

It's about educating those potential buyers who might need some infornation other than
rah-rah.

Do you dismiss the op info?
(I do...a bit. It's a very narrow field.)

 

[DoninDel]

You clearly don't like it. You're pretty sure that someone is trying to force something down your throat and you just resent the whole idea. I get it. I really do.

But here's the thing. The days of the ICE are numbered. Period. Full stop.

Will the transition be as smooth as silk? Nope. Will people get hurt along the way? Yup.

But it has to happen and it's going to happen.

So, you can bitch and moan and complain and fight against it and in the end it won't make any difference.

Enjoy your slow and polluting ICE while you can.

Completely agree.
As far as I know, EVERY car maker sees an all-electric future. They aren't being forced, it is what they see the future to be.
I look forward to getting my first EV.
WAY fewer parts.
I already have solar panels.
OPEC & Exxon-Mobil can go pound salt.

 

[Ducksface]

So you're saying hydrogen won't happen? Why?
And
Look up if
Every maker is swearing off electric as much as mandate allows.

Maybe they are.

 

[millerbjm]

This isn't about individual stories of perceived value in a purchase already made.

It's about educating those potential buyers who might need some infornation other than
rah-rah.

Do you dismiss the op info?
(I do...a bit. It's a very narrow field.)

I do not dismiss the OP as all they did was post a link to research indicating a higher than average drop in price year over year for used pachys vs the average drop in price across all cars. I was replying to your posts suggesting this price drop is attributable to the phev pacifica not being a practical or economic vehicle and only appealing to those who view it as a hobby or to virtue signal etc. I disagree with that premise and belive it is highly practical for many folks and still a good value when factoring in tax credits and fuel savings compared to similar vehicles.

 

[Ducksface]

I had meant the
Original post in its entirety,
Not the original poster.

I don't disagree that the subsidy adds value.

Practicality is why I own an AWD.
Few really need one or could ever justify the premium beyond mere want.
I have no idea if it books high or low, it's not for sale and all assets are zero in this house until converted to after tax cash in the bank.

I'll say 2% can make a convincing awd claim.
I'll say the same percentage can really make a hybrid be an overall win.

If you all have either hybrid or awd simply due to want, just say so.

Want is reasonable.
Most of the justifications are not.

(I have a one mile dirt driveway and we have Arizona snow on the ground this week. Even my class A motorhome is 4wd. I only know of two of them, anywhere.
Our awd Pac was purchased because it was an awd Pac or a TRX (or shelby) with a Tommy lift, when replacing the 5.0 coyote king ranch. nothing else was considered. We stole the Pac. So Pac it was).

I'm one of the 2%.
98% aren't.

 

[Ducksface]

Ok
Booked my 2021 loaded awd limited(no s package)
$33k to $38k
Stickers for $56,200 plus ceramic and ceramic tint plus plus...original owner paid $61,200+fees.
We bought it 8 months 6k miles used for $22k less than sticker otd and a tired old king ranch)

That's a pretty big loss if I were original owner. It's in line with the 10k a year in the op.
Maybe comparable with a hybrid.
(It's why I said that stat sheet was a narrowly focused)

 

[PacDave]

'No longer seems like a BIG loss.'
The hybrid is a loss per you.


If a small loss is acceptable for no reason other than electrics sake,

How is that not the Very definition of a hobby?

Classic tax(type)definition of hobby:
An output of funds/effort into an ongoing project with no expectation of profit.

And
You are a specific who already owns one.

I'm not trying to convince you.
I'm trying to convince potential buyers that you've said it's a coin toss based on price and that you acknowledge it's a loss, so potential buyers can need a reason other rah-rah to buy one.

The problem is that I didn’t say nor is it in fact a loss. The price I paid for my PacHy less the $7500 credit was actually lower than an ICE Pacifica. That’s not a loss. So I got a van that gets 32 mpg on the road and probably pretty close to that driving around town for the a lower price than I could have bought an ICE Pacifica and got 28 mpg and 18 mpg for highway and in town respectively.

I don’t care what your definition of hobby is, my owning a PacHy is not a hobby. It’s merely a vehicle that transports me from one place to another efficiently just as any other car that I’ve owned. It’s not an “ongoing project”.

As you can see from the images below, the base price for a 2018 ICE Pacifica Limited was $44,095 and the base price for the 2018 PacHy Limited was $44,995. That means the hybrid version base price is $900 more than the ICE version but I got a $7500 rebate on the van that the ICE owner did not. Therefore my cost was $6600 less than what someone would have paid for the non hybrid model. That combined with better overall gas mileage makes the PacHy a cheaper alternative to the gas only version. In fact, I would have saved money even if I had never plugged it in and drove it just like a standard hybrid. So now I’m saving even more money by plugging it in and getting approximately 33 miles of driving for about half the cost of what it had been had I used gas!

I’m glad you keep debating me on this because anyone who reads the thread can see that the PacHy would not be a loss when compared to the gas version. In the past five years I have spent exactly $2820.04 on gas to go 54,308 miles. That works out to less than 5.2 cents fuel cost per mile driven. I figure I would have spent at least $5000 (probably significantly more) on a gas Pacifica for that same period.

 

[PacDave]

…
If you all have either hybrid or awd simply due to want, just say so.

Want is reasonable.
Most of the justifications are not.

Nope. I didn’t buy the PacHy for merely “want”. I bought it because it saved me money over the comparable gas version of the same van.

 

[millerbjm]

Ok
Booked my 2021 loaded awd limited(no s package)
$33k to $38k
Stickers for $56,200 plus ceramic and ceramic tint plus plus...original owner paid $61,200+fees.
We bought it 8 months 6k miles used for $22k less than sticker otd and a tired old king ranch)

That's a pretty big loss if I were original owner. It's in line with the 10k a year in the op.
Maybe comparable with a hybrid.
(It's why I said that stat sheet was a narrowly focused)

This is a great example of how individualized each situation can be. I bought my 2022 Limited PHEV for $47,500 brand new minus the credit for a price of $40,000. It now books for 31-35k so a loss of approx 11-15k in 2 years of ownership.

 

[dmj]

I went back and looked at the documentation for my purchase of my 2020 Pachy. Though the dealer paperwork is a bit obtuse, the bottom line was that I purchased the van for a total of 42,772.27, including a 7,000 rebate, taxes and fees of approximately 3,000, and a trade in valued at 19,772.27. Subtracting the taxes and fees, the price for the car itself was about $40,000. I was able to claim the entire $7,500 tax credit, bringing my price down to about 32,500. The list price on the sticker was 48,945.

I checked the Kelley Blue Book valuations based on my specific VIN. Trade in range 27,700-30,100. Private party range 31,600-34,400. I don't know the accuracy of these numbers, but my out of pocket cost for 3 years and a bit over 40,000 miles appears to be less than $3,500.

I did pay for a level 2 charger and the wiring to support it, about $1,500. But I've got roof top solar and have yet to pay anything to the local utility for electricity. I'd guess that something over half of my miles are electric only.

I may be missing something here, but I don't think I've ever had a better financial outcome on a new vehicle than I've had with the Pachy.

 

[stop-eject]

Ok
Booked my 2021 loaded awd limited(no s package)
$33k to $38k
Stickers for $56,200 plus ceramic and ceramic tint plus plus...original owner paid $61,200+fees.
We bought it 8 months 6k miles used for $22k less than sticker otd and a tired old king ranch)

That's a pretty big loss if I were original owner. It's in line with the 10k a year in the op.
Maybe comparable with a hybrid.
(It's why I said that stat sheet was a narrowly focused)

If we are talking about specific examples, I bought my 2021 essentially for the difference between its sticker price and the sticker for the 2019 I traded in. So my year and half van with 20k miles lost no value at all.

 

[snobrdrdan]

With my 2021 Hybrid Limited w/S Package, it was ~$54k brand new.

After 2 years and ~10k miles......I had dealers offering me just $30-31k for it, on trade-in, and it was MINT.
Carvana offered me $35,400 for it though & so I sold it to them.

It looks like Carvana just listed it for sale finally (it's been 2 months since I sold it to them) for $41,990:

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/2876357

 

[Cornfield]

I sold my 9000 mile 20 PacHy to CarMax at the same time that I bought a new 21 PacHy from a Chrysler dealer. With getting the $7500 tax credit twice I did extremely well. This was before the shipping crises that caused scarcity of goods all over the world.
If you paid sticker or more than sticker when new cars were rare, you probably took a loss.